Pteruges: leather and/or fabric?

[Theodosius the Great]

I think I'll do a combination of wool on the inside and linen on the outside to make one pteruges strap.<br>
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-Theo <p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,<br>
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Has anyone on RAT ever bought this leather "Roman Officer's Jerkin" from Museam Replicas ?<br>
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<img src="http://members.aol.com:/rcasti998/jerkin" style="border:0;"/><br>
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I wonder if the pteruges are paper-thin .<br>
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-Theo <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=theodosiusthegreat>Theodosius the Great</A> at: 11/30/04 12:49 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

One of our guys did a while back, just to better examine it. Don't waste your time, the entire garment is made from pleather, with the pteruges being especially wispy and useless. They don't even look right, regardless of what they're made of.<br>
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After experimenting with several materials, I must confess that the leather pteruges wins hands down in my book (and I'm referring to legionary pteruges primarily... i.e., the ones reenactors would make and use, not someone portraying Augustus). Reasons:<br>
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1) Heavy but pliable, able to withstand prolonged usage while retaining their sharp look.<br>
2) Haven't found any yet... well, how many linen pteruges have been found?<br>
3) The evidence shows them all to look like linen... the evidence also shows legionaries in the Dacian war wearing caligae, Attic helmets in the Byzantine era, et al. We know the Romans had a thing about keeping "traditional" appearances on their public monuments.<br>
4) Let's not confuse images of an emperor with those of ground assault troops. It's certain that the materials would be wildly different.<br>
5) How hard/time-consuming is it to whip up a set of hard wearing leather pteruges? About an hour at most, plus a lot longer to edge them, which you can do at your leisure, even while they're on the garment. How much time to glue multiple layers of linen together and do the same thing? Quite a bit longer, I suspect.<br>
5) The field life of any piece of equipment that relies on glue as its primary ingredient will naturally be shorter than one that does not (think rain and/or sweat-soaking).<br>
6) A pteruge damaged or torn from the subarmalis? Grab a strap-cutter vs. lemme just go glue a dozen layers of linen together... Yeah, that'll match alright.<br>
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Dan's observations about them possibly being of a buff leather (and hence less likely to survive) is one possibility. A more plausible idea (IMHO): images of Arthurian and Germanic (and even Byzantine) troops frequently show them wearing pteruges on their garments. Could it be the items were simply worn til they fell apart, then were replaced, but with the pteruges eventually falling by the wayside? Hmm...<br>
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Darius<br>
LVIVPF SoCal<br>
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[Anonymous]

Mongols also used material (quilt?) that no self-respecting medieval knight would consider.<br>
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The results were seen at Liegnitz. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hi all.<br>
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Have been reading intently the course of this conversation and now feel i will buy in.<br>
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I wont go into to much evidence but if you want to know just ask.<br>
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The primary material was linen especialy for the high ranking officers. I have researched many ancient texts and can find no reference to hardend or stiffend leather. The other factor that is of note is that leather was considered 'cheap' and linen was very expensive so those that could afford it would obviously go the linen route. Our roman friends weren't very fashion concious now were they!<br>
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ps Linen is strong, get a stand of modern linen thread, wrap it around your fingers and try and pull it apart. If you actually manage to break it before you have to stop for fear of slicing your fingers off, let me know.<br>
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The whole Greek Glued linen thing is still based on fragmentary evidence, mainly the 14 layered piece found at Myceanae (which dates to around the time of the Trojan wars). The evidence from vases is far more numerous and provides a complete picture of the stages of its evolution from around the 7th century bc through to its decline around 450 bc in greece ( I believe this to be due to the supply problems caused by the Peloponnesian war, Flax does not grow well in mainland Greece) and not due to any inherant change in tactics.<br>
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The Pteruges of the Greek linothorax were definatly stiffened ( ps. I do belive they were glued using milk glue but thats a whole nother story ) as was the whole linothorax. On the other hand i think that ptergues used by the Macedonians were mainly quilted, many layers sewn together, the flying pteruge on the Alexander mosaic indicates this, as do a couple of art works from this time.<br>
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The roman military uniforms copied many fashion styles from there Greek cousins (ever wondered why the legionary chainmaile had shoulder doubling 'flaps'). The officers were no different and if you look at busts of emporers they maintain those 'shoulder flaps' even after they have forgotten what they were for (the Temple of the Deified Hadrian, built by antoninus Pius has the flaps below the neck).<br>
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I will admit my knowledge is based mainly on the Greek and Macedonian armys but i feel that the high ranking soldiers in the roman army would have had linen ptergues and maybe the lower ranks used leather to try and copy the officers.<br>
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Would love to have peoples opinions on my theories (I have been researching the Greek linen armour for about 2 years now and am in the first stages of putting together a manuscript).<br>
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PS hope this helps the discussion<br>
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Jason Hoffman.<br>
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[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Jason,<br>
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>The primary material was linen especialy for the high ranking officers.<hr><br>
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Does that include centurions and standard bearers?<br>
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Hi guys,<br>
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I just had my subarmalis altered to include a set of pteruges for the waist and shoulders. Their made of linen and wool. Do you think there's a way I can have them stiffened ?<br>
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<img src="http://members.aol.com:/rcasti998/pteruges" style="border:0;"/><br>
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-Theo <p></p><i></i>