02-12-2009, 07:45 PM
Hello all- I am working on a History Channel show about the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and I wonder if anyone can give me an idea of the size of the forest itself?
Battle of Teutoburg Forest in 9AD question
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02-12-2009, 07:45 PM
Hello all- I am working on a History Channel show about the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and I wonder if anyone can give me an idea of the size of the forest itself?
02-12-2009, 10:10 PM
There was no forest. "Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis.
I proposed this in my book De randen van de aarde. De Romeinen tussen Schelde en Eems (2000). A summary of the argument can be found here (in English); I also published it here; and it was published also by Adrian Murdoch, Rome's Greatest Defeat. Massacre in the Teutoburg Forest. I had the impression it was plagiarized from my website, but Murdoch claims it is his own discovery, so that makes two people who have independently proposed that there was no forest, plus the pollen analysis people.
02-13-2009, 06:21 PM
Thank you for the information. It's a very interesting point that you bring up, and I appreciate the insight.
02-22-2009, 11:13 AM
Quote:There was no forest.How sure are you here Jona? No offence meant, but I don't think there's consensus to that point. Granted, the findings in Kalkriese have made it clear, that at least some parts of the battle didn't happen in dense forrest, but the fighting happened over some dozens of square miles and days. And the primary sources are quite clear about dense forrest, at least partly. I think it cannot all be blamed on the Romans looking for an excuse or using stereotyped views on Germania. Quote:"Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis.Do you consider "saltus teutoburgiensis" a quite closely limited area then? But the battle was far bigger and I guess the Romans had given some more geographical names if it only applied to a small part of the battle. But well, this has happended to other battles as well. :?
[size=85:2j3qgc52]- Carsten -[/size]
02-22-2009, 01:48 PM
Quote:I don't think there's consensus to that point.I agree, but that's because not everyone has seen the pollen analysis. I only know through it indirectly, and suppose it has been published in German only. Sadly, old consensuses (consensi? consensûs?) survive when arguments that make them impossible, are not widely known. That's why the Wikipedia is such a disaster: correct, recent information is removed by authors who correct because "everybody knows" this or that. Quote:the primary sources are quite clear about dense forrest, at least partly. I think it cannot all be blamed on the Romans looking for an excuse or using stereotyped views on Germania.I am not very optimistic about this last point. There are too many really ridiculous mistakes, especially in Cassius Dio and Tacitus, who happen to be among our main sources. But this is indeed a matter of taste. Quote:"Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis.Do you consider "saltus teutoburgiensis" a quite closely limited area then?[/quote] Yes, and I even think -ridiculous though it seems even to myself- that it is an area close to Kalkriese (note the modern toponym Engter), and that Kalkriese happens to be the main assault. My argument is the way the finds are spread over the country. I think this means that an army, coming from the east, was attacked and divided itself into two new columns, one proceeding to the northwest, the other to the west. I think that the army going to the NW was still going to the original destination (the river Hase/Ems, and hence to the rebellious Chauci) and the other one had received new orders, to move to the pontes longi in the Munsterland and a site like Haltern. The march of this army is described by Dio, and I think it may have reached the northern Munsterland. It certainly can have encountered forests. Interestingly, Tacitus mentions Caecina as having a vision of Varus in the marches; Caecina, at that time, is in the Munsterland. I think that future archaeological research must be done between Osnabruck and Munster. On the other hand, I am hoping that there will be another explanation for the spread of the finds at Kalkriese. The idea that they have found the site of the main attack, somehow is a bit uncomfortable. If things sound too good to be true, they are usually not true.
02-22-2009, 03:00 PM
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction. Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
02-22-2009, 07:08 PM
Quote:Are you folks familiar with this theory:Vaguely; right now, there are several new theories. I read two or three revisionist books, and decided no longer to read them. There's too much crap in them.
02-22-2009, 09:16 PM
Quote:Tacitus, Annales, 2.19: This is IMO a good idea for Kalkriese. Especially in the light of the sword sheath mouthpice with the inscription "LPA" hinting to legio prima augusta which was operating in the events descibed above in 16 CE. Also the relevant Lugdunum Altar series have been redated to 13/14 CE meanwhile. In Kalkriese sling bullets were found, the text above is the only place where Tacitus descibes their use in Germania. And there´s more to it. I think it is really worth considering. Map below helps to see why the text above goes so well with Kalkriese: Black arrow: Germanicus´army on the march Black lines: Walls excavated in kalkriese Red arrows: Germanicus attacking the walls with the Praetorians Blue arrow: Legate Tuebo Green arrows: Rest of the army attacking Arminius See also: [url:3ihz9anx]http://www.clades-variana.com/kalkriese.htm[/url] and this, summing up all the different theories: [url:3ihz9anx]http://www.clades-variana.com/Die%20bisher%20gelaeufigsten%20Varusschlachttheorien.htm[/url]
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction. Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
02-22-2009, 10:02 PM
Quote:I think it is really worth considering.Certainly, although it is a bit weird that not a single coin of Tiberius was found at Kalkriese, which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13. Quote:and this, summing up all the different theories:It is strange to see Otto Hoefler's Werra hypothesis mentioned over there. His main argument was the Knetterheide, which reminded him of the Gnitaheide, which is mentioned in an Icelandic text as the place where Sigurd/Siegfried killed the dragon; and he has argued (not unconvincingly) that Siegfried and Arminius have a lot in common. Unfortunately, the Knetterheide is named after a family that lived there in the seventeenth century - which makes part of his theories implausible.
02-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Quote:The pollen analysis you're talking about, does its findings apply just to the Kalkriese site or to a far wider area? I checked the University of Osnabrück's website and they indicate that at least the Kalkriese site was quite rural, but I understand it that they are talking just about the "vicinity" of Kalkriese, approx. 2 hectars.Quote:Tiberius Clodius Corvinus wrote:I agree, but that's because not everyone has seen the pollen analysis. I only know through it indirectly, and suppose it has been published in German only. http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de ... bung1.html As to Schoppe I dont know about him, but his website reminded me of the *very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readers
[size=85:2j3qgc52]- Carsten -[/size]
02-22-2009, 11:58 PM
Quote:Clearly, with their inferior equipment and organisation, the German tribes stood little chance in a huge open battle. Equally, as is pointed out by Tacitus/Germanicus, in woods, where fighting would often be man-to-man, their equipment would give the legionary the upper hand one-on-one.caiustarquitius:7b5c7e67 Wrote:I think it is really worth considering.Quote:Certainly, although it is a bit weird that not a single coin of Tiberius was found at Kalkriese, which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13. How then could the Germans defeat the Legions? The way an inferior force always 'evens things up'. Ambush! Catch the Romans in open areas surrounded by woods/marshes for cover; launch fierce short sharp charges from cover and many directions.......Varus schlact !! Even without the pollen evidence Jona refers to; as is well argued in his article linked to above, the battle(s) are unlikely to have taken place in woods...........
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country) "No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton Paul McDonnell-Staff
02-23-2009, 12:10 AM
Quote:*very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readersYeah, that one´s always good for a laugh. I wouldn´t compare it to that one, though. The site doesn´t say it MUST be this or that, it offers thoughts and argues what could be the best solution. Quote:It is strange to see Otto Hoefler's Werra hypothesis mentioned over there.It´s for the sake of completeness, I assume. He surely isn´t taken serious. Quote:which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13.It might be due to the fact that there were three complete legion banks left after 9. That money has certainly gone to the other troops. Just a thought.
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction. Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
02-23-2009, 12:27 AM
Oh, and what IMO might also support a later setting for the event at Kalkriese are the pelta-shaped belt buckles found there. They are absent in Dangstetten IIRC and Augsburg Oberhausen and have a tpq "late Augustan". Haltern has only eight of them (earliest version)vs. 30 + of the earlier type. Kalkriese has AFAIK 3 Pelta-shaped ones on display and one of the earlier type (?)
=> Just a personal thought, needs some checking.
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction. Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
02-23-2009, 08:54 AM
Sorry to interject something off-topic, but I just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread so far. I'm quite enjoying this and already picked up much information I had no idea about previously. Keep it up.
David J. Cord
www.davidcord.com
02-23-2009, 11:00 AM
Quote:I read some time ago that a numismatic expert, I believe it was Wolters, said that it was impossible to determine the battlefield date just from the coins. There's a thread on here that summarizes the findings of a conference organised by the Kalkriese archeologists. But nonetheless some findings of Kalkriese still make little sense to me, too.caiustarquitius:1qzbah1j Wrote:I think it is really worth considering.Certainly, although it is a bit weird that not a single coin of Tiberius was found at Kalkriese, which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13. Quote:How then could the Germans defeat the Legions? The way an inferior force always 'evens things up'. Ambush! Catch the Romans in open areas surrounded by woods/marshes for cover; launch fierce short sharp charges from cover and many directions.......Varus schlact !!Well, the Romans would've stuck to every open place they could find, but question is how many of these places were there. I just feel that the term "open place" and "no forrest" as I understood Jona in the first place allows for too much interpretation, when these open places were in fact just a - tactically very limiting - series of clearings, fields and the ways the army was marching on, so it could constantely being harrassed by the Germans from the safety of the woods. I give the sources here more credit and think they are way to specific to be just "invented". The Romans might not have liked it, but I really doubt they were able to restrict their fighting to the open places. Quote:My bad. I didn't mean to compare. But then I saw the Friebe-theory I remembered, that I regulary used to check its alternative history forum. I just had a look at it and its still fun, kind of, in a weird way.Quote:*very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readersYeah, that one´s always good for a laugh. I wouldn´t compare it to that one, though. The site doesn´t say it MUST be this or that, it offers thoughts and argues what could be the best solution.
[size=85:2j3qgc52]- Carsten -[/size]
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