Maille During the Time of Darius I

[Lepidina]

You should be able to link to a colour version of the above photo on their website. I've talked to a few people who reckon that it is much later than that. Personally I don't know. It seems to be in too good a condition to be as old as initially claimed. It certainly doesn't look like tghe scale armour in Scythian illustrations - most are fashioned in the Greek "linothorax" style.

If it helps I've written a brief essay outlining the differences in terminology and why Victorian texts used the word "mail" to describe all metal armour.
http://www.knightsofveritas.org/materia ... ngmail.pdf

Ugh, I can't seem to find the image on the MET website. I'll still have to contact them and ask their permission to use the image, which shouldn't be a problem.

I'll definitely have to read your article. I thought that "mail" was generic for armor to begin with. The Victorians seemed to do a lot of generic labeling as you tend to find that any non-woven textile is labeled as just "knitting".

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Sorry to go OT here but there is an image called eye doublet, which bears an uncanny resemblence to something worn on a Roman Arch or column......I always thought it could be a sub. :?

“Archers should wear either eyelet holed doublets that will resist the thrust of a sword or dagger and covered with some trim to the liking of the captain... or else jacks of mail quilted upon fustian.”

That is pretty interesting.....

[Sean Manning]

Neither does the infantryman from Persepolis.

If you look closely, yes, he actually does.

You are probably be right. My sketch doesn't show a sagaris at the back, but there is a note about a crosspiece by the figure's head. Just to make sure, I'm talking about Seal No. 30 in Eric Schmidt ed., Persepolis, Vol. II (1957).

I'm not convinced that this cut of armour derives from the Black Sea/Aegean region tube-and-yoke cuirass. The sleeves and high neckguard are significant differences, and some Assyrian reliefs show what looks like thin pterges. It seems like it could be Central Asian in origin.

The shoulder-guards are significantly different, but it certainly wouldn't be hard to adapt a tube-and-yoke to make them. The high neckguard is not significantly different at all - it could easily just be an oversized rectangular neckguard. The Persians would not be the only ones at this time to adapt the tube-and-yoke to their own preferences - look at the contemporary Celtic statues from Roqueperteuse and Glanum, which have enormous oversized "backboards," unlike the Greek tube-and-yokes in use at that time.

A Central Asian origin can be ruled out for this style of cuirass. The type of heavy cuirass with a collar that we find in Central Asia concurrent with the last century or so of the Persian empire (and these source depicting Persian armour) show a completely different style of high collar that is the same height all round from where it begins at the side of the face to the portion covering the back of the neck which derives from earlier Chinese charioteer armour. It is only later, toward the first century BC on, for instance, the coins of the Saka rulers Tanlismiadates, Vonones, and Azes II that we see a collar which rises steeply toward the back of the neck; this style of collar of course reaches its apogee in the Orlat battle plaques, which can be dated to probably around the second century AD. The collars seen on these Persian cuirasses only cover the back of the neck, and there is nothing at the sides.

Humh ... Persians had been in western Asia Minor for decades, so an Aegean fashion in armour could have travelled to Persis by 470 BCE. I guess I'll have to look at the art in Duncan Head's book and decide for myself.

I haven't heard of those Celtic statues so I'll try to look them up.

[MeinPanzer]

You are probably be right. My sketch doesn't show a sagaris at the back, but there is a note about a crosspiece by the figure's head. Just to make sure, I'm talking about Seal No. 30 in Eric Schmidt ed., Persepolis, Vol. II (1957).

It's a bit faint, but it's there. The butt flares out a bit and is more visible than the front tip.

Humh ... Persians had been in western Asia Minor for decades, so an Aegean fashion in armour could have travelled to Persis by 470 BCE. I guess I'll have to look at the art in Duncan Head's book and decide for myself.

I haven't heard of those Celtic statues so I'll try to look them up.

Plus there are the Greek vases which show Persians using tube-and-yoke cuirasses. Not a stellar source, I know, but one that can be used to corroborate evidence, nonetheless.

As for Celtic use of the tube-and-yoke, check out Figs. 1-3 of this PDF:

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.p ... load/13/14

[PMBardunias]

I wish we could see the front to know how it closed. The tube and yoke is such a simple form that I would be wary assuming that it had a single origin and spread from there. Especially when we see so much variation from the Greek norm as in this one.

[MeinPanzer]

I wish we could see the front to know how it closed. The tube and yoke is such a simple form that I would be wary assuming that it had a single origin and spread from there. Especially when we see so much variation from the Greek norm as in this one.

In this respect, the design is deceptively simple, though. The tube-and-yoke actually has a fairly unique design if you take into consideration its characteristics. They are:

1) A tube body.

2) Two loose, roughly rectangular shoulder yokes which are tied down at the front.

3) A rectangular neckguard.

4) Pteruges.

5) A separate backboard which is attached to 1) and from which comes 2) and 3).

Of course some of these elements are not always present (such as 5, which sometimes is either not shown clearly on representations or was left out) or are not present in the same qualities or quantities; but if you accept that most of the time they do, and if you take these aspects together, you realize that it is pretty hard to chance upon this particular design. Take, for instance, Chinese armour (which, I think, we may safely say has had almost no influence placed upon it from Graeco-Roman sources). One very well-preserved example comes from the tomb of Lui Xiang, who was the King of Qi who died c. 179 BC:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/qiarmour.jpg

Now, this suit almost looks as if it could have emerged under tube-and-yoke influence, but it lacks many of the main characteristics:

1) Has a tube body.

2) Has two rectangular shoulder yokes, but only one is loose, as was the norm with Chinese cuirasses since the 3rd c. BC.

3) No rectangular neckguard.

4) Has an area of scales imbricated differently below the waist to allow for more flexibility, but it is one solid area, and not many strips like pteruges.

5) No backboard.

So it really only qualifies in one, maybe two categories.

Here's another, from the tomb of Zhao Mo, who died between 122 and 117 BC and was the king of Nanyue in southern China:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/image ... armour.jpg

1) Tube body.

2) Two rectangular shoulder yokes but, again, only one is loose.

3) No neckguard.

4) Nothing even resembling pteruges.

5) No backboard.

And on top of that, organic armour of the Greek style (whether linen or leather) is not found. So the tube-and-yoke is actually pretty complex and hard to chance upon, and I think it's pretty safe to assume a single origin for it.

[Sean Manning]

Just to make sure I understand your argument Ruben, there seem to be two variants of this cut of armour in Persian art. Both have pterges at the waist and a panel standing up behind the head, but one has rectangular guards for the upper arm and is worn by cavalry, and one has an axe stuck inside the collar at the back and is worn by infantry. You think that this cut is a variant of the tube-and-yoke because of the pterges and neck flap. Of course, that's only two conditions of your five, and one of them (no. 3, the rectangular neck guard) doesn't exist on most Greek examples. They just have a small tab at the top of the neck guard. So until we have a few images of this armour from the front or back, this will probably remain unsettled.

[Artabanos]

Hello

I'm working on a new artwork with Persian elite infantry and cavalry, while looking at my photo collection I came to similar conclusions. My infantryman had a tube-and-yoke cuirass with the place for the Sagaris and short row of Pteruges. It has also a short neck and throat guard known from the Parthian period which seems to have been also used by the Achaemenids.
My cavalryman has that high neck-guard which also acts as throat-guard and a two row Pteruges. Other new ideas are those rectangular upper arm armour and an additional ring armour for the left arm (it was the left arm which was equipped with ring armour according to Xenophon IIRC).

**Edit

[MeinPanzer]

Just to make sure I understand your argument Ruben, there seem to be two variants of this cut of armour in Persian art. Both have pterges at the waist and a panel standing up behind the head, but one has rectangular guards for the upper arm and is worn by cavalry, and one has an axe stuck inside the collar at the back and is worn by infantry.

Yes, based on the very limited evidence that we have, this is my argument (which is taken largely from Duncan Head's ideas in his book, but of course with the subsequent evidence of the Canakkale sarcophagus to support it).

You think that this cut is a variant of the tube-and-yoke because of the pterges and neck flap... So until we have a few images of this armour from the front or back, this will probably remain unsettled.

Firstly, we can only test two and a half of those categories (they have tube bodies and pteruges, but we can only say that it has a neckguard, rather than a rectangular one), and it fits those, as well as being made of organic material. Were we able to get another angle, we would be able to confirm whether the other categories fit or not.

Of course, that's only two conditions of your five, and one of them (no. 3, the rectangular neck guard) doesn't exist on most Greek examples. They just have a small tab at the top of the neck guard.

I'm confused by this. What are you referring to as the neck guard? I think your "small tab" is my neck guard; the difference between the Greek neck guards and the examples shown on, for instance, the Canakkale sarcophagus is simply a matter of size.

[MeinPanzer]

I'm working on a new artwork with Persian elite infantry and cavalry, while looking at my photo collection I came to similar conclusions. My infantryman had a tube-and-yoke cuirass with the place for the Sagaris and short row of Pteruges. It has also a short neck and throat guard known from the Parthian period which seems to have been also used by the Achaemenids.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the only evidence for Achaemenid use of gorgets or throat guards can be deduced from Xenophon's prescription in "On Horsemanship."

My cavalryman has that high neck-guard, a two row Pteruges which also acts as throat-guard.

Can you explain this last part further? The pteruges act as a throat guard?

Other new ideas are those rectangular upper arm armour and an additional ring armour for the left arm (it was the left arm which was equipped with ring armour according to Xenophon IIRC).

I don't think there exists any evidence for Persian cavalry using laminated arm armour like Xenophon describes. He describes scythed charioteers as wearing it, but we never hear of it being employed by cavalry. In addition, his prescription for wearing such armour (which he calls "cheir") on the right arm only seems fantastical. You have to take Xenophon's prescriptive comments about cavalry armour with a grain of salt, as we not only have no evidence of Greek cavalry ever employing such armour, but also very little evidence relating to Persian cavalry. I would not reconstruct heavy Persian cavalrymen with cheir, but the rectangular shoulder guards that has been discussed here would definitely fit with a heavy Persian armament.

[Artabanos]

@MeinPanzer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the only evidence for Achaemenid use of gorgets or throat guards can be deduced from Xenophon's prescription in "On Horsemanship."

The throat protection is only secondary its mainly a neck-guard, I think you can find it in those artworks of Gorelik (its short compared to the other variants). It seems to be made of leather and I think I have spotted it on an Achaemenid artefact worn by a heavy infantryman. Since I have seen it in early Parthian artefacts, I have a good feeling about it.

Can you explain this last part further? The pteruges act as a throat guard?

Sorry this was a typo, I corrected it.

I don't think there exists any evidence for Persian cavalry using laminated arm armour like Xenophon describes. He describes scythed charioteers as wearing it, but we never hear of it being employed by cavalry. In addition, his prescription for wearing such armour (which he calls "cheir") on the right arm only seems fantastical. You have to take Xenophon's prescriptive comments about cavalry armour with a grain of salt, as we not only have no evidence of Greek cavalry ever employing such armour, but also very little evidence relating to Persian cavalry. I would not reconstruct heavy Persian cavalrymen with cheir, but the rectangular shoulder guards that has been discussed here would definitely fit with a heavy Persian armament.

Well yes its on shaky grounds; but we know those ring armours for the arms from the Parthian period (Parthians didn’t employ chariot AFAIK) and as Xenophon talks about it we can also be sure that it was in use during the Achaemenid period.

I was under the impression that Xenophon was talking about the ring armour protecting the arm that holds the reins and that what I want to use. My artworks are mainly about the most elite units of the Persian army and my goal is to reconstruct the heavy cavalry that fought against the Greeks at Palatai, namely Masistios and his "invincible" armour. That’s also why I'm again planning to use a metal face mask.

[MeinPanzer]

The throat protection is only secondary its mainly a neck-guard, I think you can find it in those artworks of Gorelik (its short compared to the other variants). It seems to be made of leather and I think I have spotted it on an Achaemenid artefact worn by a heavy infantryman. Since I have seen it in early Parthian artefacts, I have a good feeling about it.

What Gorelik illustrates in his highly hypothetical reconstruction of Xenophon's prescriptions is the Derveni gorget, which is Macedonian. Which Achaemenid artefact showing a heavy infantryman and early Parthian artefacts are you referring to?

Well yes its on shaky grounds; but we know those ring armours for the arms from the Parthian period (Parthians didn’t employ chariot AFAIK) and as Xenophon talks about it we can also be sure that it was in use during the Achaemenid period.

Yes, the Parthians employed such armour widely, as did just about every major culture in Central Asia from the 3rd century BC onwards (Saka, Bactrians, etc.), but that is no evidence for Achaemenid use. All that tells us is that Parthian cavalry employed such armour. I don't doubt that it was used during the Achaemenid period, but the only evidence we have points to its use by charioteers.

I was under the impression that Xenophon was talking about the ring armour protecting the arm that holds the reins and that what I want to use.

Literally ever other source that I know of that illustrates the use of such arm armour shows it being worn on both arms, which is why I would be cautious when working with Xenophon's prescriptions. He was clearly providing an imaginary ideal of what would be the best arms and armour for a cavalryman to employ, and not actually drawing upon actual usage.

My artworks are mainly about the most elite units of the Persian army and my goal is to reconstruct the heavy cavalry that fought against the Greeks at Palatai, namely Masistios and his "invincible" armour. That’s also why I'm again planning to use a metal face mask.

Cavalrymen like the figure on the Canakkale sarcophagus (who very well may have been a satrap) most likely would have been among the most elite horsemen of the Persian army. What evidence are you drawing on for reconstructing such a figure with a face mask?

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry to interrupt the present discussion, but I was going back over the whole thread and picked up on a few loose ends...
Deb wrote:

Do you have the source? People are picky about copyright violation at work and I'd like to be able to point to the website and say that it is fair use. Thanks!

....not sure if it was made clear from just references to the 'Met' that this piece is in the Metropolitan Museum of New York......
Dan wrote:

You should be able to link to a colour version of the above photo on their website. I've talked to a few people who reckon that it is much later than that. Personally I don't know. It seems to be in too good a condition to be as old as initially claimed. It certainly doesn't look like tghe scale armour in Scythian illustrations - most are fashioned in the Greek "linothorax" style.

...the artifact is in a remarkable state of preservation, especially considering other finds of 'tomb armour' where the organic material has perished, and just a pile of scales remain. One assumes it has been reconstructed, or just possibly, fake. One would dearly love to know more about it's provenance.....
As to it being a true 'Tube-and-Yoke', I had always assumed that the 'yoke' was missing. One clue to this is the lack of protection for the top of the shoulders ( see photo posted ante, where the top of the shoulders don't seem to have any scale re-inforcement) If the original had a scale re-inforced 'tube', but just an 'organic/leather 'yoke' which had perished, it is perfectly understandable that a reconstruction might miss out the yoke altogether. ( There are ample precedents in Greek and Scythian art for this arrangement - see e.g. the footman with crescent shield on the Solokha comb)

[Artabanos]

@MeinPanzer

What Gorelik illustrates in his highly hypothetical reconstruction of Xenophon's prescriptions is the Derveni gorget, which is Macedonian. Which Achaemenid artefact showing a heavy infantryman and early Parthian artefacts are you referring to?

I won’t use that two piece throat und neck scale protection. The one I want to use is like a popped collar. I will provide the pictures when I have finished my picture.

The point here is: some kind of neck protection is needed when Kuban type helmets are used and at this point I expect something Kuban-related to be carried by Persian heavy infantry under the Karbysia. That’s maybe somewhat far fetched but it’s better than no helmet at all. We have already talked about this here on the forum, however at the moment my heavy infantryman just wears a Karbysia.

Yes, the Parthians employed such armour widely, as did just about every major culture in Central Asia from the 3rd century BC onwards (Saka, Bactrians, etc.), but that is no evidence for Achaemenid use. All that tells us is that Parthian cavalry employed such armour. I don't doubt that it was used during the Achaemenid period, but the only evidence we have points to its use by charioteers.

I think Xenophon is one of the best sources of information about Persians. I think his "On horsemanship" is more or less a copy of a Persian work. Therefore if the mentions ring armour used by cavalry, I have no reason to doubt it.
But beside that I have of course some more evidence which I will eventually present.

Cavalrymen like the figure on the Canakkale sarcophagus (who very well may have been a satrap) most likely would have been among the most elite horsemen of the Persian army. What evidence are you drawing on for reconstructing such a figure with a face mask?

Yes the Canakkale sarcophagus is really revolutionary and I'm trying to reconstruct the Masistios-kind heavy cavalry based on it. As for the face mask; Herodotus on the battle of Plataea.

[MeinPanzer]

@MeinPanzerI won’t use that two piece throat und neck scale protection. The one I want to use is like a popped collar. I will provide the pictures when I have finished my picture.

Which artefacts are you drawing this collar from, and which Parthian sources were you referring to before? You don't have to post pictures, I'm just curious to hear which ones you are referring to.

The point here is: some kind of neck protection is needed when Kuban type helmets are used and at this point I expect something Kuban-related to be carried by Persian heavy infantry under the Karbysia. That’s maybe somewhat far fetched but it’s better than no helmet at all. We have already talked about this here on the forum, however at the moment my heavy infantryman just wears a Karbysia.

Why would some kind of neck protection need to be worn?

I think Xenophon is one of the best sources of information about Persians. I think his "On horsemanship" is more or less a copy of a Persian work. Therefore if the mentions ring armour used by cavalry, I have no reason to doubt it.

There is no doubt that Xenophon was aware of Persian sources and drew on them, but his work is certainly not "more or less a copy" of Persian work. Have you read critical literature on "On Horsemanship" or "Cyropaedia? There is good reason to doubt the accuracy of some things that Xenophon writes.

Yes the Canakkale sarcophagus is really revolutionary and I'm trying to reconstruct the Masistios-kind heavy cavalry based on it. As for the face mask; Herodotus on the battle of Plataea.

I just went through Herodotus' account and I can't find it. Could you please provide a passage number?