Arthurian stuff

[Agraes]

Book allowance blown big time.... but at least I will know who King Arthur was :roll:

Im brittonic, I wield a spatha and bear a helmet, can I pretend to be Arthur?

Please?

It's all very well looking the part but can you prove you have slain many Saxons ????

870 more to go and that would be enough :wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

My current favourite is Owain Ddantgwyn :wink:

Is that based on Philips and Keatman? The people who say Owein was a king of Powys when he wasn't?

Don't tell me that ... who was?

I like the idea that the Votadini came south and via Cunedda, Enniaun Girt ...Owain Ddantgwyn became the Dux Bellorum ... known as the Bear. I prefer a view that he was not a King but a war leader ... in a manner similar to Vorcingetorix ... for the duration of hostilities you Mr Whitetooth are in charge 8)

I'm afraid to say that he was a king of Rhos, not Powys; secondly he was not known as 'The Bear' although his stronghold was The Fortress of the Bears (not Bear). Philips and Keatman assumed he was known as The Bear because of this, but no where is he called it. There is also no actual proof that Cunedda (Cunedag) came to North Wales and the only place there is any topographical evidence is in Dyfed, where there is a Cunedda Hill. Also, Rhos is a much smaller kingdom compared to his big brother's Gwynedd (Venedota), so if anyone's going to be in charge it's Cadwallon Lawhir... but Philips and Keatman seem to ignore all this.

I used to live right next to The Berth hillfort, the place they claim the kings of Powys were buried, so I had a great interest in their book and theories.

[Conal]

You set no store in the theory that Owain was king of both Rhos and Gwynedd, taking over the latter from Cadwallon, before being murdered by his nephew Maelgwn Gwynedd (ap Cadwallon) so he could take the throne?

[Arturus Uriconium]

You set no store in the theory that Owain was king of both Rhos and Gwynedd, taking over the latter from Cadwallon, before being murdered by his nephew Maelgwn Gwynedd (ap Cadwallon) so he could take the throne?

I'm afraid I don't. I don't think Maelgwn/Mailcun did kill Owain. Gildas says he "oppressed" (not murdered as he mentions Maelgwn doing later to others) his avunculus - his maternal uncle - not his patruus and that this happened when Maelgwn was a youth. If the genealogies are right, Maelgwn was far from a youth when his father and uncle died. So it's his mother's brother he "oppressed", and she was supposedly from Arfon. This is another one of those theories that someone has come up with and many others have simply repeated without checking the source.

Of course, what is possible is that Rhos and Gwynedd did go to Owain and he simply died. However, this doesn't help Philips and Keatman's theory, who say he was a king of Powys and that a 10th century manuscript says so. I've looked at that same manuscript and cannot see it!. There are two points here actually: one, no one knows when Powys came into existence, and two, why isn't he listed in the Powys genealogies? Cyngen Glodrydd is probably the 'king' of Powys at the time.

They also site the Berth being the burial site because it's near Baschurch, which they say is the churches of Bassa, but I now believe it more likely to be Basingwork. The biggest hiccup is there have been no post Roman finds at the Berth, although English Heritage have finally agreed to another dig, so maybe things will change.

[dux bellum]

Wow, I didn't think anyone believed in the Owain=Arthur theory anymore...

If I remember right, the king of Powys at that time was Cadell. I think it was Cadell..hold on...well, either Cadell or Cyngen Glodrydd (who may be the same as Gildas' tyrant Aurelius Caninus).
[url:3dg0o0yg]http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/CymruPowys.htm[/url]

I can see why people would want to equate Arthur with Riothamus, but i believe the Arthur who probably fought at Badon is the one who started the legend (whether he was a king or not) that the the feats of other men were grafted onto, and I usually equate Ambrosius=Riothamus. Therefore, I can't really take Pace's theory seriously, especially if he's tying Vortigern into the whole mess...

What does Pace say about Badon?

Gonna hafta find an' read that Laylock book

Im brittonic, I wield a spatha and bear a helmet, can I pretend to be Arthur?

Please?

well, that depends. First question: What...is your name?

[Conal]

Wow, I didn't think anyone believed in the Owain=Arthur theory anymore...

Hey ... just because he was not the king of Powys dont mean he aint Arthur .... plus I did a wink with it :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

Wow, I didn't think anyone believed in the Owain=Arthur theory anymore...

Hey ... just because he was not the king of Powys dont mean he aint Arthur .... plus I did a wink with it :wink: :wink: :wink:

So why wouldn't Gwynedd/Rhos capitalize on it in their genealogies? :wink:

Mak

[Conal]

What ... the royal line of Gwynedd big up a Rhosanian upstart. Politics eh :roll:

Its amazing how you can marginalise a real hero in favour of some inner circle fop & dandy 8) 8)

[Arturus Uriconium]

What ... the royal line of Gwynedd big up a Rhosanian upstart. Politics eh :roll:

Its amazing how you can marginalise a real hero in favour of some inner circle fop & dandy 8) 8)

Erm, who was Rhos a sub-kingdom of? hock: Who, by the 9th century rule the whole of North Wales? :roll:

[Conal]

That's my point ... he was a sub to Gwynedd ... had he been in the direct line he may have been claimable but ... the envy of others kept him out of the geneologies other than where he was rightfully rex minorum ( i made that word up i think :lol: ).

He kicked out the Saxons ... but the Gwynedd A team took the credit.

I'm still :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

That's my point ... he was a sub to Gwynedd ... had he been in the direct line he may have been claimable but ... the envy of others kept him out of the geneologies other than where he was rightfully rex minorum ( i made that word up i think :lol: ).

He kicked out the Saxons ... but the Gwynedd A team took the credit.

I'm still :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

They were both of the line of Cunedda ) ( shock: Rhos and Gwynedd seem almost inseparable :? wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: back atcha!

[Conal]

Some good points but .....

Owain, under his fame as Arthur (the Bear of Badon :? ), let the side down when he lost to his uncle Cerdic ...Cunedda's son .. at Camlan.

Accordingly they kept the Arthur epithet off the geneologies due to family embarassment. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

Some good points but .....

Owain, under his fame as Arthur (the Bear of Badon :? ), let the side down when he lost to his uncle Cerdic ...Cunedda's son .. at Camlan.

Accordingly they kept the Arthur epithet off the geneologies due to family embarassment. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Ah ha. Mm. :twisted: Then why, a generation later, do those of Demetia and Dalriada give their sons the name :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Was it given to embarrassing sons? :lol: What historical source has ever said Cerdic fought Arthur at Camlann :mrgreen: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Conal]

Ah ha. Mm. :twisted: Then why, a generation later, do those of Demetia and Dalriada give their sons the name :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Was it given to embarrassing sons? :lol:

They realsied that 12 out of 13 battles wasn't bad :roll:

What historical source has ever said Cerdic fought Arthur at Camlann :mrgreen: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

I'm reading Reno at the moment (see above) .... he is certainly hinting at it. Historical Source .... If only :|

[Arturus Uriconium]

They realised that 12 out of 13 battles wasn't bad :roll:

:lol:

I'm reading Reno at the moment (see above) .... he is certainly hinting at it. Historical Source .... If only :|

I have a lot of time for Frank Reno, although I may not always agree with his conclusion. :o