Apulo-Corinthian helmet dating

[Ebusitanus]

Salve,
I tried to make a forum search but did not find anything about this subject.
At our Legio we are having a very interesting debate about the use of the Apulo-Corinthian helmet.
Its almost common fare to see in literature, when talking about the Punic wars, the all so typical Trarii depicted wearing along with his long lance also the tell tale Apulo Corinthian helmet. While such depictions are always generic (I´m sure Triarii would not be bulk issued or had mandatorily to purchase such helmets ) they are there nontheless.

The doubt that sprung up in a recent debate was precisely how correct or incorrect it is for any punic wars era unit to show such useage? Given that all known surviving pieces are being dated for the V-IV century BC

Thnx in advance

[Ebusitanus]

The forum is speechless

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hi!
Actually I tried to avoid that discussion. ^^
If you look at the dated findings from graves the date I provided in the other thread seems to give us a rough terminus post quem non. For the later pieces from Autun or the 3rd c. AD "Gesichtshelme", (see picture below) which show some of the characteristcs of the Apulo-Corinthian helmets this is not the case, of course. The "gap" between the actual Apulo-Corinthians and the Autun helmet has no examples whatsoever from archaeological context.
Apulo-Cornithian helmets are later on represented in art of course, (e.g. Domitius-Ara) but that doesn´t tell us whether the helmet was actually worn at that time. We also have depictions of corinthian helmets in 19th century art, but everybody will agree that it was no longer in use at that time... ^^

[Ebusitanus]

Its just so interesting how so much literature has been developed about the Punic Wars were you would invariably see Apulo-Corinthians being despicted as worn while in fact there is nothing to base this upon besides the much later (1C BC?) "parade style" model of Autun.

But then one could argue that the all so quoted and represented Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus is also showing this model along with Montefortinos while normally accepted as a "realistic" source for republican gear.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, so where has this 'myth' come from.
I have been under the impression from every angle, tha tthe triarii wore these Apulo-corinthian helms.

Not my favorite helmet, as I had always loved the true corinthian, and saw them as a poor copy of the finest helmet in world :mrgreen: but it had wormed it's way into acceptance in my perceptions.... :twisted:

I hate it when my perceptions are altered with false data, especially unpleasant false data.... :twisted: :lol:

[caiusbeerquitius]

The only figure which is wearing such a helmet on the Domitius-Ara is the depiction of Mars, However, this also might be meant to be a corinthian helmet... It clearly is not a soldier, anyway.

[Ebusitanus]

I would have thought the guy to the right is also wearing one.

[PhilusEstilius]

Why does H.R.Robinson refer to the so-called Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus and say that the figure wearing a short cuirass could be an officer or the god Mars.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I would have thought the guy to the right is also wearing one.

Not impossible. Could also be an "attic-boeotian" helmet, though. The volutes are a bit difficult, here.

Why does H.R.Robinson refer to the so-called Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus and say that the figure wearing a short cuirass could be an officer or the god Mars.

Because back at his time this was still disputed. More recent archaeological publications refer to this figure as "Mars" for a variety of reasons, mainly the relative size, but also in comparison with other depictions of sacrificial scenes in which the relevant god or goddess is present to "receive" the sacrifice. Also: the type of figure is a typical representation of Mars which can be seen quite often. Fits well with the suovetaurilia, so identifying this as Mars seems to be the most logical choice.

[MeinPanzer]

I would have thought the guy to the right is also wearing one.

Not impossible. Could also be an "attic-boeotian" helmet, though. The volutes are a bit difficult, here.

I'm no expert on Italic helmet types, but do Apulo-Corinthian helmets ever have volutes? It seems much more likely that this guy wears a Hellenistic-type helmet, just like all the other soldiers on the Ahenobarbus reliefs.

[caiusbeerquitius]

do Apulo-Corinthian helmets ever have volutes?

No, I don´t think so. I don´t know of a single example.

[jespah2000]

According to Paddock's 1993 study of bronze Italian helmets, the latest example of the Apulo-Corinthian helmet which can be dated in any meaningful fashion is from the Tomb at Ordona Foggia in Southern Italy (350-300 BC), with most examples of the type (he lists 59 different finds) dating to the 5th century BC. After that point, all the evidence for the helmet type is entirely iconographic until you get the much later variations on the design like the Gesichtshelme.

Not sure how much we can read into that, given the patchy nature of equipment deposition in Italy, but it might be possible that the Apulo-Corinthian helmet became very much like the Corinthian helmet it was based on: a classic helmet type used by artists to make men look more heroic, but not something which was in actual use after the early 3rd century BC, being replaced by the Montefortino variety.

As for the volutes, Paddock does note that many of the later examples were 'decorated', so I suppose it is possible... although I'm not entirely sure what he meant by 'decorated' as he doesn't provide images of all his examples!

[MeinPanzer]

According to Paddock's 1993 study of bronze Italian helmets, the latest example of the Apulo-Corinthian helmet which can be dated in any meaningful fashion is from the Tomb at Ordona Foggia in Southern Italy (350-300 BC), with most examples of the type (he lists 59 different finds) dating to the 5th century BC. After that point, all the evidence for the helmet type is entirely iconographic until you get the much later variations on the design like the Gesichtshelme.

Not sure how much we can read into that, given the patchy nature of equipment deposition in Italy, but it might be possible that the Apulo-Corinthian helmet became very much like the Corinthian helmet it was based on: a classic helmet type used by artists to make men look more heroic, but not something which was in actual use after the early 3rd century BC, being replaced by the Montefortino variety.

As for the volutes, Paddock does note that many of the later examples were 'decorated', so I suppose it is possible... although I'm not entirely sure what he meant by 'decorated' as he doesn't provide images of all his examples!

On a related note, an Apulo-Corinthian or Pseudo-Corinthian helmet appears on the early 2nd c. BC Pergamon weapons reliefs (I would be skeptical about its identification as such were the miniature "face" not very clear). It is the only example from outside of Italy that I know of, and apparently then one of the few later representations.

[Celtic505]

I would say the soldier on the right wearing the mail shirt and oval scutum is wearing a helmet of the hellenistic thracian-type. Thats the only title I can think of to call it. Another example would be the helmet on the so called "Rhodes Trophy Armor" Statue and a couple examples of this helmet appear in Osprey Series books "Armies of the Carthaginian Wars" being the General on the right hand side on the cover and in the plates hes labelled as a Roman Legate or Consul, and in the Osprey Series "Republican Roman Army" its in the second last plate, which McBride actually says is based on the altar. The Tribune and soldier on the right are wearing it. Another book I have around here thats about Seleucid and ptolemeic armies illustrated by Angus McBride has a buncha examples of this type of Helmet. I just call it the "Hellenistic Helm" or as I've seen called elsewhere "Consul Helm" or "Rhodes Trophy Armor Helm". It looks very Hellenistic and I beleive its depicted in a lot more Roman sculpture as well, and I personally beleive Roman Generals would probably have worn this type of Helmet to go along with the rest of their Hellenistic panalopy well into the Principate. Thats just my opinion.