Arse (Saguntum) did this city have Royal Persian conections?

[Trojan_horse]

Hey guys, I’m doing a bit of research on the Roman city of Saguntum and I was wondering if anyone could help me on the origin of its previous name.
The city was known as Arse before the Romans changed it to Saguntum, I don’t know when it was called this.

I think that a probable explanation could be that the name came from a Greek translation of a Persian people.
Arses is a Greek form of the name of Artaxerxes, or Artakhshassa, and the earliest reference to this is Artaxerxes 1st Longimanus King of Persia who died in 424BC.
Before him in about 500bc was Arsames 1st breif King of Persia.

Their is an Artaxias 1 King of Iberia so its possible that since, some say that the Spanish Iberia was inhabited by these people from Caucasus Iberians, the name Arta found its way to the Edetan area and under Greek influence the city was called Arse after some Arta(person) whose family held sufficient power since they arrived.

Any thoughts on this would be great. Thanks.

[Trojan_horse]

after doing some more digging i found that Artaxerxes 4th (the last of his dynasty) was known as Arses by the Greeks. 336BC
his reign only lasted 2 years as he was murdered along with his sons, but it could be possible that either one son or family members fled as far away from Persia and settled in the Greco/Iberian settlement of Zakynthos(saguntum).
this could be possible as his Father Artaxerxes 3rd aided the Greeks in their struggle with Phillip 2nd of Macedon and his family could have been held in good favour with them.
if anyone can either dispute this or add to it, it would be great.
thanks again.

[Jona Lendering]

I do not really believe in this type of reasoning. I have see to many grave errors to have confidence in them. Of course, cities were called after people - think of Constantinople and Alexandria - but we know that these people were actually there. There is no evidence that suggests Persians in the Far West.

i found that Artaxerxes 4th (the last of his dynasty) was known as Arses by the Greeks

He was also called Arses by the Persians; the name is rendered Ár-šú in Babylonian. The name Artaxerxes is an altogether different one.

I think that the root of "Arse" is Iberian, a language that is hardly known at all.

[Untilatie]

Hi!

The name of Ar-se, has probably a native origin. There is another iberian important city which has a similar construction. The iberian city of Kes-se (Roman Tarraco and modern Tarragona) was the capital of the Kessetanian people, another important coastal commercial center, like Arse was.
So, maybe, the -se suffix could have done reference to a concept related with a common activity to both of them but actually unknown for us.

[Trojan_horse]

Hey, thanks for the reply.
You see, I’m doing research for a novel and its set in 220BC in and around Saguntum. I’m attempting to be as authentic as I can and the city of Arse is the main stage. There is very little, if any, writings referring to it as Arse as most of the sources are concerned with post-Roman references.

I know that Arse was an independent city in the Edetani region with a heavy Greek influence at one point. There was a colony called Zacynthos where Arse is, said to have been colonized by people from the island of the same name in the Ionian island group in Greece. Not sure how accurate this is.

I guess I’m using artistic license to stretch some tenuous links with a Persian name to the limits but I’m just teasing it out to see how it plays out.

One theory on the origins of the Iberian peninsula is that they came from the Caucasian Iberians. These Caucasian Iberians might have come from the Levant region in the east and in the Spanish Levant we have Iberians as well. Some say this is where the name Iberia came from as apposed to the river Ebro.

Either way the Phoenicians did settle people in this part of Spain and they would have maintained trade links with all of the Phoenician colonies including Carthage and mother city Tyre. And the Phoenicians were linked to Persia according to Herodotus as early as 529BC when he describes how Cyrus the Great employed Phoenician ships in his army in his conquest of Egypt.
And Persia continued to use the Phoenician Navy until 366BC when, with the Cypriots they broke away from the Empire.

So I guess I’m trying to link the dots (forcibly) with the Greeks who settled in Arse after the Phoenicians who could have had an ‘Arses’ (Arsha)at one stage.

Arses, was the personal name of the Artaxshaca/Artaxerxes/Arsha the 4th , who was the son of Artaxshaca/Artakhshassa/ Artaxerxes the 3rd.
Artaxshaca being (an old Persian) a regal name for the throne, and the Greek form would have been Artaxerxes-Arses(Arsha)
so Arses would be a Greek translation of Arsha
even Xerxes is a greek translation of Xshayârshâ (old Persian)

I’d be more inclined to think that the name came from a Phoenician source but I know its a long shot.

Again, I’m just teasing this idea out. For some reason I got stuck on the Idea and cant seam to shake it off.
Thanks for the replies.

[Trojan_horse]

Pliny does mention the Persians in relation to inhabitating Spain.

book 3 chapter 3

M. Agrippa supposed that all this coast was peopled by colonists of Punic origin. Beyond the Anas, and facing the Atlantic, is the country of the Bastuli and the Turditani. M. Varro informs us, that the Iberians, the Persians, the Phœnicians, the Celts, and the Carthaginians spread themselves over the whole of Spain; that the name "Lusitania" is derived from the games (lusus) of Father Bacchus, or the fury (lyssa ) of his frantic attendants, and that Pan was the governor of the whole of it.

Arhsa is a Persian name meaning Great. Arses seems to be a translation of Arsha, and Arse seems to be Greek as the Greeks had a big influence on the city before the romans came.

could not Arse be an old Persian 'great' city??

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Mr Trojan,

Please add your real name to your signature (profile) before you post again. Because it's a forum rule.

Arse seems to be Greek as the Greeks had a big influence on the city before the romans came.
could not Arse be an old Persian 'great' city??

Arse is also English. So maybe it was a dump full of Anglo-Saxons.

[Untilatie]

Hi!

Yes, you're right, the origin of the city of Saguntum seems to be in the Greek colonists arrived from Zacynthos, according to Strabo, Livy and Apianus although this is undemonstrable by now. Only Ptolomeus mention the city of Arse (Geogr. II, 6, 63)
In any case, before Greek arrived, an Iberian settlement existed there. In other words, Greco-Latin historians associated the colony of Zacynthos to the Iberian settlement of Arse when, in fact, we are talking about two different settlements: Zacynthos/Saigantha, a commercial settlement based in the coast (modern archaeological site of Grau Vell) and Arse, another settlement on the Sagunto hill near the coast. According to the last theories, its possible that Saígantha was another Iberian name to the coastal city whereas Arse was used to make reference to the first/ancient Iberian settlement on the hill. In fact, exists a text in a commercial lead where appears the name of Saígantha and Saigantheo. We've got another case of dual denomination with Tarakon/Kesse.

As surely you already know, Phoenician colonial presence around the coast of Spain is reduced to the south (Gades, Malaca, Sexi, Baria, etc) and the island of Eybushim/Ibiza, but no one settlement has been identified along the east coast before the foundation of Carthago Nova/Cartagena. This would explain the high presence of Phoenician pottery and jewellery in many Iberian peoples of the eastern coast.

It's difficult to affirm that Arse is a Persian foundation solely from the name, when there is no archaeological evidence of that at all, when the Iberian occupation is evidenced there from V cent BC and when other Iberian cities has a similar name (Kes-se, Kel-se, Ar-sa, ...).

Best Regards!