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Rome\'s Greatest Politician
#1
I came up with this topic upon reading a new book on Cicero which the author was assuming he was Rome's greatest politican. I do not agree. Cicero was an amazing Orator, possibly the best ever, also a great lawyer. As far as a politician goes Im not so sure he could match up with the likes of some of Romes other politicians. His consulship was not amoung the most productive of that era, with exception of the Catalina conspiracy. I would argue that if you look at the greatest politician Rome ever produced, the name on the top would be Augustus. His political skills are unmatched by any other Roman, even his great uncle, to go by blood, Gaius Julius Caesar. <p>THERE ARE NO STUPID PEOPLE, ONLY PEOPLE STUPID ENOUGH TO NOT KNOW WHEN THEY'VE MADE A MISTAKE</p><i></i>
"Freedom was at stake- freedom, which whets the courage of brave men"- Titus Livius

Nil recitas et vis, Mamerce, poeta videri.
Quidquid vis esto, dummodo nil recites!- Martial
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#2
Magnus,<br>
<br>
that is a great question. Mostly, Rome's politicians were first of all military leaders; the question for the best general has been asked on this forum already. Cicero was indeed one of the few pure politicians that had no or only little military experience.<br>
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But what makes a politician great? His - may be - good, social intentions? The Gracchi surely had, but they were murdered and at the end remained success-less. Is success the answer, Caesar was called a great and successful politician, too. But he did not recognize the different political tendencies that led to his personal end.<br>
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So for me You gave the right answer already. I also tend to Augustus. He knew all the tricks to survive in the confusions after Caesar' death. He remained successful in the following civil wars. He delegated tasks to people that were better qualified than himself - Agrippa as his commander-in-chief and best admiral of his time (what was important at Actium).<br>
So he established a new form of reign with the principate (Caesar had wanted nothing else), but he managed to make the Senate follow him.<br>
<br>
Furthermore he promoted the unit of the state and the army (Concordia) after bloody civil wars. He reorganized the Roman Army on a level of 28 legions what became a standard for his successors for centuries. He started a large building program, Rome emerged from a city of brick houses to one with marble forums.<br>
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At the end he achieved an era of piece during his reign, the so called Pax Romana.<br>
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I wanted to enumerate his - primarily - political and less military success here only in terms of catchwords. Over much one can be of other opinion and surely I have overlooked some aspects. But I think, his politics formed the basis for an empire stable for several centuries.<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>
Greets - Uwe
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#3
My vote goes for Octavian.<br>
He learned the political lessons of the late Republic and built an empire!<br>
Cicero is, in my opinion, a second rate actor in the show of roman history, and is nothing in comparison to an Octavian.<br>
<br>
Of course many generations of young minds have had to translate Cicero's nice latin - in my opinion a waste of time. But it you think about it and ask yourself: Why was roman stuff taught to begin with? Answer: Because the Roman Empire did survive so long and left an impressive heritage.<br>
Cicero did belong to that class of men that made Rome great. But when shove come to push and I am asked to make a list of who was a great politician in Rome then Cicero does not even make the top 20!<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#4
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Cicero is, in my opinion, a second rate actor in the show of roman history, and is nothing in comparison to an Octavian.<hr><br>
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Cicero was a very important figure in his time. Some people seem to think he was a great politician, but I don't agree with that. He was a good politcian, but not great. As I mentioned earlier, his councilship was nothing extrodinary, if not for the Catalina conspiracy his councilship would not have been remembered as having accomplished a whole lot, although in that time any councilship where a civil war did not ensue or peace secured could be considered an accomplishment. Cicero made some bad political decisions, such as executing convicted roman citizens, even though they were enemies of the state. By today's standards that is not that big a deal, however to the Roman Republic that was horrific. He also kept on mentioning how he saved the republic, and people got fed up with it and it hurt his public opinion, one of the most important features in a politician. And don't forget Cicero did win some military battles while a govenor in Cicilia.<br>
<br>
To move on, what makes a great politician in Roman days. First, military success does matter. Going in with military success is public opinion. Also you need to know where you stand on the Roman political spectrum, whether you side with the conservative optimates or the populares.<br>
<br>
Even though he was not well liked by the populance another great politician was Cato. He may not have had the support of the population most of the time, but he was very conservative and impossible to move on any issue he felt strongly on. He was a supported of the way things always have been done and in many ways led the Boni in their opposition of Caesar, prolonging the end of the republic, which by this point was unsavable.<br>
<p>THERE ARE NO STUPID PEOPLE, ONLY PEOPLE STUPID ENOUGH TO NOT KNOW WHEN THEY'VE MADE A MISTAKE</p><i></i>
"Freedom was at stake- freedom, which whets the courage of brave men"- Titus Livius

Nil recitas et vis, Mamerce, poeta videri.
Quidquid vis esto, dummodo nil recites!- Martial
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#5
I agree that the Young Caesar/Octavianus/Augustus was a consumate and great politician. That goes without saying. Let's not forget though that some periods loom larger than others in our imagining and others which might at first seem well known on close inspection turn out to be virtually unknown. I'm sure that there were many great politicians during the third century but all I could name if pressed would be about two thirds of the emperors of the period, with not a single senator entering my list. That does not mean they were not great. It just means that I don't know much about the period.<br>
Within the period that I do know reasonably well, I would suggest that Nerva must have been a better than average politician. He had survived Domitian's depredations on the senate and without a military reputation anything like as significant as his adopted son he managed to manouver the rest of the senate into making him an emperor! To cap that he created a stable and successful line of imperial succession and was remembered as a good emperor. Surely he was the politician's politician - a statesman in fact.<br>
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Uwe, Pompeius' 133rd posting has reminded me of your mention of the Gracchi. I do not believe that the Tiberius or Gaius Gracchus were actually really concerned about the public good. The land scheme which was greeted with such joy by the populace and so much anger by the wealthy was really just a cynical (although imaginative and dangerous) ploy to catch a good crop of votes in future elections.<br>
A) To start with, although both Gracchi were tribunes of the plebs when they were murdered, they were from an upper class family (forget the by then virtually irrellevant difference between patricians and plebians which only really mattered when certain ambitious politicians wished to use their plebian lineage for political gain) and could well have expected to rise through the cursus honorum to praetorships and possibly even consulships.<br>
B) The public land they proposed to give to the urban poor was not unihabited. The 'squatters' inhabiting the land were almost certainly the people who had lived there for generations, but who by supporting Hannibal had had their land confiscated by the state. The Roman state had probably never effectively cleared these people from the 'confiscated land and they had probably simply returned, rebuilt their homes and re-established their farms. As people with no voting rights however, and living on land that the bureacrats in Rome considered to be the property of the state they were easy prey for an ambitious politician's scheme.<br>
C) Under the voting system of the comitia centuria, the more property a person had, the more significant his vote was. The votes of the urban poor would count for very little but as land owners they would have much greater voting power and it would be reasonable to assume that much if not all of that voting power would have been directed towards the politicians who had given them so much to be thankful for.<br>
<br>
Therefore I feel that the motivation for Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus' land grant scheme was essentially self serving and this was recognised by other politicians who did not want such a man disturbing their own progression up the cursus honorum and decided that sacrosanct or not he had to be got rid of before he could act. The same applied a few years later when Gaius decided to pick up where his big brother had left off. Of course, the adoring public could only see in each case the double outrage of the murder of a tribune of the plebs and (perhaps more significantly) the death of a man who they believed wanted to help them to a more secure future. Hence the statue of the Gracchi's mother raised by the people in memory of her sainted sons.<br>
Sorry this has got a little OT.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 8/11/04 7:54 pm<br></i>
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#6
Is it also possible that the two Gracci Brothers were also trying to stir things up, like Clodius and his family have been known for doing. The Gracchi brothers were the first jolt to the republic, which eventually would lead to other tribunes doing the same thing and would have a major role in the fall of the republic. <p></p><i></i>
"Freedom was at stake- freedom, which whets the courage of brave men"- Titus Livius

Nil recitas et vis, Mamerce, poeta videri.
Quidquid vis esto, dummodo nil recites!- Martial
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#7
Lucius Saturninus of the 90BC era was not the smartest politician, but he was one of the Republic's best draftsmen and lawmakers. His dubious idea of fomenting a ravenous mob into a force against Rome is beyond me, but I give him credit for his oratoral skills, ambition, and his dominance with the Tribune of the Plebs. For some reason this guy came to mind first... <p></p><i></i>
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#8
It also helps to have the first man in rome giving you orders, or ideas is probably better, but by this point every year there were tribunes being bought and controlled by senators. Not taking away from Saturninus abilties though, he was great at what he did. <p></p><i></i>
"Freedom was at stake- freedom, which whets the courage of brave men"- Titus Livius

Nil recitas et vis, Mamerce, poeta videri.
Quidquid vis esto, dummodo nil recites!- Martial
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#9
Yes need to know more on what you mean by politician<br>
<br>
What are we to emphasize most on - as orator, lawmaker, how cunning they were, ability to get their way?<br>
<br>
Id say Caesar was a politician to the bone - all the way he used politics to get what he wanted (till he in my oppinion was forced to use might) and allmost allways with sucess - then I tend to believe that Caesar was allmost best at whatever he set his eyes on <p></p><i></i>
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#10
Marcellus Brutus begat Marius and Sulla, who begat Julius and Octavian, and in turn begat Marcus Aurelius and Constantine.<br>
<br>
All were "best" for their epoch, and may have been far less effective in another. <p></p><i></i>
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