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Isidore of Seville : Roman citizen ?
#1
Avete,<br>
<br>
I have questions about Isidore of Seville.<br>
<br>
Did he live in Byzantine-Roman territory ? Was he a Roman citizen ?<br>
<br>
According to this map, Seville was just barely outside direct Byzantine control. The map says 600 AD.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://members.aol.com:/rcasti998/spain" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Either way, I wonder if he received a Roman education being so close to the border with Byzantium.<br>
<br>
-Theo<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=theodosiusthegreat>Theodosius the Great</A> at: 11/29/04 11:14 am<br></i>
Jaime
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#2
He must have received what passed for a Roman education back then, being a literate churchman. I doubt whether Byzantine or Visigothic control had any great influence on the quality of this - certainly, Cassiodorus and Boethius were no less Roman for serving barbarian kings. Visigothic Spain preserved some of the old traditions of education and literacy (evidence from within the church is best, but I suspect there is much about secular literacy and education we don't know because it wasn't preserved).<br>
<br>
As to Roman citizenship - technically he must have been almost certainly. Citizenship passes through the female line, so it will be difficult to trace, but the majority of inhabitants of all provinces had citizenship since the Consitutio Antoniniana. As to his personal feeling onm the subject: I suspect (though I haven't read much of his stuff and don't know whether he actually addresses the subject) that he felt himself Roman, no matter whether in territory directly administered by an emperor or not. 'Romanitas' was still something you could make political hay with in 600. Most barbarian kings laid claim to some degree of legitimacy through recognition by the Roman emperor, however meaningless this was in practice. Also, as a churchman I am sure he felt a degree of connection with the catholic and sacred church - the most Roman of institutions, by his contemporaries' standards.<br>
<br>
Keep in mind, as late as the 9th century, Alfred the Great wanted to be Roman. <p></p><i></i>
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#3
Hi Theo,<br>
<br>
At the time, the end of the Roman Empire was not as clear to the persons concerned as it seems to us. For them not much had changed, and the new rulers were not that new, only of of a different ethnicity than the Romans. Most of the time they ruled 'in the name of Rome', but in some cases they set up shop themselves.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure where Isidore lived, but he may have been inside the Suebian kingdom. Nevertheless, that would not withold him from regarding himself as still a Roman citizen.<br>
<br>
Patrick wrote to Coroticus 'as a Roman citizen' around 430 AD, while that Coroticus in all likelyhood was a dark age warlord from Strathclyde.<br>
Gildas, writing in Britain ca. 520-30, also saw himself as a Roman citizen.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#4
Avete Carlton and Valerius.<br>
<br>
Thank you for your insights. I ask these questions so I can try to guage Isidore's credentials when it comes to his written accounts concerning 'classical' Roman military clothing.<br>
<br>
He lived relatively close to the period just after the collapse of the Western government. Yet he may have lived in the reconquered Western territories of Justinian.<br>
<br>
So I figure he must have had a Roman education with access to sources now lost to us. But, as you Valerius and Carlton pointed, even if he lived deep in Visigothic territory his education would still have been considered a Roman one.<br>
<br>
Judging from these facts, I'd say Isidore carries considerable weight when it comes to his historical accounts.<br>
<br>
At first I thought him to be suspect because I've heard of a British historian who lived in the 6th century who recorded ridiculous local claims about Hadrian's wall (such as the Romans being able to ride chariots on the walk ways of the wall). He, like Isidore, lived close to the time period when the Romans still controlled the province and yet he proved to be extremely unreliable as a source (if not outright worthless). But that can be attributted to the remoteness of Britain from the center of Roman government. Isidore had the advantage of living on a peninsula of which parts were still under Roman control.<br>
<br>
Valete.<br>
-Theo <p></p><i></i>
Jaime
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#5
Quote:</em></strong><hr>At first I thought him to be suspect because I've heard of a British historian who lived in the 6th century who recorded ridiculous local claims about Hadrian's wall<hr><br>
<br>
I am assuming you are referring to Gildas, a rather angry Christian monk. He unfortunately, rather had his own agenda when he came to describe the "Ruin of Britain" You can though sometimes read between the lines.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sassanid@romanarmytalk>Sassanid</A> at: 11/30/04 11:00 am<br></i>
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#6
Quote:</em></strong><hr>At first I thought him to be suspect because I've heard of a British historian who lived in the 6th century who recorded ridiculous local claims about Hadrian's wall (such as the Romans being able to ride chariots on the walk ways of the wall). <hr><br>
Eh??<br>
If this is Gildas (Theo, Sassanid, I wrote about that guy in that last mail?!?), the comment about chariots is totally alien to me. Gildas wrote about The Antonine and Hadrianic walls, implying both were constructed in the early 5th century.<br>
Gildas wrote more than a hundred years after the end of Romen rule in Britain. Like I said though, he still considered himself to be a Roman citizen.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#7
Robert,<br>
<br>
The actual quote is also unknown to me. I just assumed that was who Theo was referring to from the other part of his description. Could be wrong though?<br>
<br>
I know Bede also got a little confused about the walls, their construction dates, their purposes and their dimensions. While he lived next to Hadrians wall at Jarrow, a very long time had passed and he had a few sources he could go on. Gildas presumably being one of them.<br>
<br>
Andrew <p></p><i></i>
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#8
His family was from Carthago Nova and was forced to leave the city when it was taken by the Bizantines. Isidore lived in the Wisigothic Kingdom and he considered the Wisigothic Kings as right succesors of the Roman Empire instead of the Bizantine goverment. <p></p><i></i>
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#9
Quote:</em></strong><hr>I know Bede also got a little confused about the walls, their construction dates, their purposes and their dimensions.<hr><br>
Sure he would, all he wrote about the 4-6th c. was pinched from Gildas. So he was bound to repeat the mistakes that Gildas had made.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply


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