Post Diocletian Legion

[Urselius]

Looking at the arch frieze the left hand musician looks like he's blowing a straight instrument whilst his companion definitely has a cornu.

There is one argument against the depiction being an archaism and that is that the musicians are wearing long-sleeved tunics (and possibly trousers). This is a contemporary fashion and surely if they were being depicted as a bit of antiquarianism to fit with the Trajanic date reliefs on the arch they would have been shown wearing short-sleeved tunics.

As for the "Roman Attic" helmets, I've always been struck by the similarity of the brow-piece to older Greek diadems. Such diadems were often used as funerary ornaments, made of gold foil on a leather or other backing material. I wonder if there was any social, religious or other non-utilitarian significance in depicting soldiers wearing such helmets.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Hi Martin

I like your argument for the aeneatores' being contemporary.

As for the "Roman Attic" helmets, I've always been struck by the similarity of the brow-piece to older Greek diadems.

I'll get my act into gear and put my thoughts together on this in another thread. Diadems are something I hadn't considered.

Anyhoo, for the moment, thanks and bye!



Howard/SPC

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Tom,

So, then I can assume that the old-style legions still had the Primipilus but the new style legions had the Primicerius?

I'm not sure. There were tribuni, centuriones and decuriones present in the 6th c., but I don't know if the primus pilus also made it that far.
If not, it might be due to changes in unit structure that this function (not rank, he was a centurio) could have become defunct.

[Lothia]

Ave Civitas,

Hi, Spurius Papirius Cursor. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I did read the note on the primicerius. However, Vortigern Studies posted a later comment that the older style legions continued to exist and their command structure was unchanged.

That is what prompted me to post my last question about the continued existence of the Primipili.

I know that as a writer I am free to use "Artistic License". However, I would rather not unless I have exhausted all avenues of research and, to create a desired scene, I must "License" my way through it.

My goal in this novel is not only to entertain, but to educate also (well, and make embarassing sums of money). The very last thing I want to happen when my book hits the stores is for someone to pick it up, read a passage, realize it is wrong, and then not read further, and even worse, post a bad review.

Ave Vortigern Studies,

Thanks for the reply. Your comment that you are not sure that the Primipilus position still existed perplexes me. Which way do I go while maintaining historical accuracy.

Let me ponder this for a few days and see if some other thought bubbles to the surface.

Thanks again. Your help is irreplaceable.

Me.

[Robert Vermaat]

Ave Vortigern Studies,
Thanks for the reply. Your comment that you are not sure that the Primipilus position still existed perplexes me. Which way do I go while maintaining historical accuracy.

Easy. Choose something that we are more sure of? :lol:

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Hi all

Thought I'd drag in questions from another thread: Shrinking of Roman Legions (last post Thu 08 May 2008, 6:23). link from old RAT

Fort remains as evidence of unit sizes. Anyone (looking at this current thread) got info on multi-storeyed garrison accommodation?

Shrinkage. "...(P)lague occurred during the reigns of Decius (249-251 A.D.) and Gallus (251-253 A.D.). (It) infected the entire empire. Its mortality rate severely depleted the ranks of the army, and caused massive labor shortages. The plague was still raging in 270, when it caused the death of the emperor Claudius Gothicus (268-270)."

Smith, Christine A. "Plague in the Ancient World: A Study from Thucydides to Justinian." The Student Historical Journal 1996-1997 24 Dec. 2008 <http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1996-7/Smith.html>.

"Somewhere" (i.e., I was too lazy to note) I've read the attrition rate in the army due to plague alone could have been as much as a third.

I've also read "somewhere" the post-Marian cohort may have been an administrative unit rather than a tactical one.

In legions shrunken by plague and re-distribution necessities, I'm wondering whether the maniple re-asserted itself as the legion's tactical subunit rather than the cohort OR whether the century filled that role?

Cheers

SPC/Howard

[Robert Vermaat]

Shrinkage. "...(P)lague occurred during the reigns of Decius (249-251 A.D.) and Gallus (251-253 A.D.). (It) infected the entire empire. Its mortality rate severely depleted the ranks of the army, and caused massive labor shortages. The plague was still raging in 270, when it caused the death of the emperor Claudius Gothicus (268-270)."

We should be careful with the word 'plague' as a denominator for d desease. Ancient sources often use the word indiscriminately, but modern research has shown that, more often than not, several deseases and causes of breakdown in society could be at work. All too often the word makes us think of the Black death in medieval Europe, but 'plagues' could be outbreaks of several deseases. It's not said that there was one single 'plague from 249-270, just because authors note it as the cause of death for some people. Sveral outbreaks could have occurred, or different 'plagues'or fevers could be happening. No need to paint an apocalyptic picture without more facts.

"Somewhere" (i.e., I was too lazy to note) I've read the attrition rate in the army due to plague alone could have been as much as a third.

I'd be interested to hear about the reasoning behind that figure. Did the author mean a mortality rate among the soldiers or a drop in eligible recruits?

I've also read "somewhere" the post-Marian cohort may have been an administrative unit rather than a tactical one.

That's just weird. One could argue that about any tactical unit.

In legions shrunken by plague and re-distribution necessities, I'm wondering whether the maniple re-asserted itself as the legion's tactical subunit rather than the cohort OR whether the century filled that role?

That's not what we see. Beside the word itself of course, NCO's, draconarii, all the sort of things you'd expect for a cohort, are in place. I have not come a cross a maniple as a tactical subunit in the Late Roman military sources. We hear about cohort commanders often.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Merry Christmas / Happy New Year Everybody

I am presently "holidaying" in Canberra, our nation's capital. Actually, I'm visiting family - no-one seems to willingly spend their holidays in Canberra. It's like Speer's grand vision for Berlin realised. OK, the buildings aren't quite so tall but you can't escape that 1930's power-in-design thing. Lots of broad avenues, really buff architecture, no people. I'm sneaking time on my wife's laptop in between accusations of Exceeding The Monthly Download Quota. Doesn't make for thoughtful posts, so I'd better make amends for my last one.

Shrinkage. "...(P)lague occurred during the reigns of Decius ... it caused the death of the emperor Claudius Gothicus (268-270)."

We should be careful with the word 'plague' ... No need to paint an apocalyptic picture without more facts.

True enough. We are receiving a picture of what occurred through a limited number of primary sources and we're stuck with their choices of words. Still, one disease or many, I'm wondering just what impact these diseases had collectively on the army establishment and my suspicion is it must have been fairly significant. I guess, I just want to be able to "get a feel for" these shrunken legions of the fourth century.

"Somewhere" (i.e., I was too lazy to note) I've read the attrition rate in the army due to plague alone could have been as much as a third.

I'd be interested to hear about the reasoning behind that figure. Did the author mean a mortality rate among the soldiers or a drop in eligible recruits?

It was a secondary source - I'll try to hunt it up. My memory suggests the figure described mortality rate among the current soldiery. However, my memory hasn't been what it used to be of late.

I've also read "somewhere" the post-Marian cohort may have been an administrative unit rather than a tactical one.

That's just weird. One could argue that about any tactical unit.

Possibly a poor choice of expression on my part. By "Post-Marian" I meant after Marius (i.e., after his reforms) not after Marian-type legionary organization turned into something else - i.e., the legion structures of Constantine's time. Again, my starting point was a speculation by the author of a secondary source. I have to start recording these things I find if I'm going to throw them out and expect folk to comment on them - sorry. I'll retrace my steps on that one too.

In legions shrunken by plague and re-distribution necessities, I'm wondering whether the maniple re-asserted itself as the legion's tactical subunit rather than the cohort OR whether the century filled that role?

That's not what we see. Beside the word itself of course, NCO's, draconarii, all the sort of things you'd expect for a cohort, are in place. I have not come across a maniple as a tactical subunit in the Late Roman military sources. We hear about cohort commanders often.

I'm happy with that. I was just wondering about the nature and status of the cohort in these shrinking legions.

When I'm back in Brisbane I'll have a more solid think and try to put up something more reasoned and substantial to play with.

Meantime, enjoy the Season, and may your beverage of choice sustain you!

Cheers

SPC/Howard

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Hi again

Back in Brissie for a while.

I really did try to locate my original readings about the impact of the plague on the size of the later Roman Army, but to no avail. I mignt not be able to recall the sources but I was confident it'd be easy to recognize them. Hah!

Robert, I can't (sorry) sustain my comment about the attrition (to the existing establishment) due to "plague" being as much as a third. I just can't locate that source. The best I was able to do was this Wikipedia entry:

"The Plague of Cyprian is the name given to a pandemic, probably of smallpox, that afflicted the Roman Empire from 251 AD onwards. It was still raging in 270, when it claimed the life of emperor Claudius II Gothicus (ruled 268-70). The plague caused widespread manpower shortages in agriculture and the Roman army.[1]"*

(*"Plague of Cyprian." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. 24 May 2008. 7 Jan 2009 <[url:3hivwd0v]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plague_of_Cyprian&oldid=214605681[/url]>. )

Now, the citation (Note [1]) is "Zosimus New History 26, 37, 46". The only copy of Zosimus I was able to locate was online, and the "26, 37, 46" didn't help me. The only references in Book I that seemed relevant were:

(a) (ca 259-260 AD.) "Valerianus had by this time heard of the disturbances in Bithynia, ... and went in person from Antioch into Cappadocia, and after he had done some injury to every city by which he passed, he returned homeward. But the plague then attacked his troops, and destroyed most of them, at the time when Sapor made an attempt upon the east, and reduced most of it into subjection."

(b) (270 AD.) "Nor was the plague confined to the Barbarians alone, but began to infest the Romans, many of whom died, and amongst the rest Claudius, a person adorned with every virtue. His death was a severe loss to his subjects, and was consequently much regretted by them. "

((a) and (b) Zosimus, New History. London: Green and Chaplin (1814). Book 1., http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/zosimus01_book1.htm )

Was the "CyprianPlague" still raging in 270 AD? I gather this "Plague" only lasted for about 15 years so whatever killed Claudius II may have been another outbreak of maybe even a different disease. There do seem to have been a number of pandemics in the Third Century - not really surprising considering the frantic movement of armies around Europe and the Mediterranean during this century.

Zosimus himself (from what I read) seems to say only that the "plague" destroyed most of Valerianus' troops in the East. Maybe someone can interpret the "Zosimus New History 26, 37, 46" and show what supports the Wikipedia assertion that the "plague" caused "widespread manpower shortages in ... the Roman army."

However, what I had been trying to assert myself was that one or more pandemics during the Third Century could have whittled the army (empire-wide) to about two-thirds of its strength. To prove that, there were two facts to be sought:

(i) That pandemics had depleted the army significantly across the empire;
(ii) That the amount of depletion could have been as much as one-third.

Certainly, I won't stop looking for that elusive (? imagined??) source. But, for the present, neither point is supported. :oops:

Cheers for now

Howard / SPC

[sonic]

Hi again
(*"Plague of Cyprian." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. 24 May 2008. 7 Jan 2009 <[url:17p4qe9v]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plague_of_Cyprian&oldid=214605681[/url]>. )

Now, the citation (Note [1]) is "Zosimus New History 26, 37, 46". The only copy of Zosimus I was able to locate was online, and the "26, 37, 46" didn't help me. The only references in Book I that seemed relevant were:

The three references appear to be from Book I, and are translated by Ridley (Sydney, 2006) as follows:

Zos. I. 26: ‘no plague in human times wrought such destruction of human life (as the Skythian attacks of 251-2)’

Zos. I. 1.3: ‘ … an unprecedented plague struck the cities. This made the disasters suffered at the hands of the barbarians seem mild in comparison and led those struck down by the disease to consider themselves fortunate. Thus the cities which had already been captured by the barbarians became completely depopulated.’

Zos I. 46: ‘ … a plague seized them all. Some died in Thrace, others in Macedonia, and the survivors were either enlisted in the Roman legions or were given land and so became farmers. The plague affected the Romans also and killed many of their soldiers. Among the victims was Claudius, a man conspicuous for virtue and sadly missed by his subjects.’

Hope that helps!

[Robert Vermaat]

Indeed, I do not see any point of a plague depleting the army.

[fasta]

Thanks gents I've been looking for info on this subject on another thread