Late-Roman Scuta

[Anonymous]

I think the image implies two straps into which you slide you arm. Thus it is suspended from the forearm. This would enable you to keep you hand free to carry a weapon and also use your right hand.<br>
<br>
By flexing the arm up, down, or sideways you can deflect and defend rather effectively. <p></p><i></i>

[Goffredo]

handle OR forearm straps!<br>
That is a nice issue.<br>
<br>
The handle in "classic" roman scuta was replaced by a forearm strap in Galerius' arch? Maybe the artist didn't know how shields were wielded and simply copied the sterotypes of tradition that showed greek heroes wielding a shield with straps! Maybe the chap in the sculpture is a cavalry man, although on foot. Did cavalry shields have straps? (non-zero risk of dropping shield if horse made any sudden movements...). Anyone?<br>
<br>
Regards infantry: if forearm straps were the best (flexible and effective) solution then it is strange the romans adopted it so late (the straps are systematically shown in most greek and etruscan hoplites in sculptures and paintings). Why did the romans use handles for centuries? Maybe the hoplite shield was too heavy for a simple handle, that had to be ruled out because of this and for no other fundamental reason (was it really better?). Indeed the romans were practical and if they did not use forearm straps for centuries then there must have been a a darn good reason to continue doing so for so long! Did the "classic" legionary (200 BC-200 AD) really carry two pila into battle? IF yes then there must have been an effective way to do so using the handle.<br>
<br>
Regards fore-arm straps helping in shield movements, I actually think that this way of carrying a shield limits movements even more than a central handle grip and probably accenuated the tendency of a left-arm shield carrying man to drift to the right to take cover from his buddy on his right. Infact in a duel a handle is better, in my opinion, for a relatively fast and tight sword fight, of course as long as the shield is not too heavy.<br>
<br>
A very heavy shield, so heavy to need straps, would probably not be useful in an infantry sword fight (Notice that a greek hoplite was not normally expected to fight with a sword. As I understand it the sword was a last resort personal defence weapon not a prime offensive chop-up-the-enemy-line weapon).<br>
<br>
Just thinking <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 9/17/04 1:35 pm<br></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Nathan,<br>
In the case of that particular picture we'd be talking about a cavlryman. He's clearly leading a horse with one hand, therefore he needs his left for the lance. No small spear mind you, but the heavy contus. I think therefore that cavalrymen needed shield straps, to hold the shield without hands.<br>
<br>
Gray,<br>
I assume you're right about a second strap.<br>
<br>
Anyway, I think any cavalryman needed a method to hold his scutum without hands. An infantryman on the other hand needs to be able to wield his shield (as I know from practise), and therefore would not use such starps.<br>
<br>
Goffredo,<br>
I'd say no straps were used for Late Roman infantry shields, at least not as a neccesary means to hold them in battle.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 9/17/04 2:47 pm<br></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Theo,<br>
<br>
I am pretty sure that no two full-lenght spears were carried.<br>
the unsheated swords while still carrying spears is again that misconception that the sword was the first weapon of use.<br>
<br>
I'm sure not even the 'classic' legionary went into battle still carrying his pila!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

It would seem to me that if a shield was held by a central handle and not arm straps, it would be extremely difficult to hold two spear shafts in the same hand at the same time. I'm not saying it is impossible, but if I had to wager, my bet would be that these ancient illustrations are pure artistic fantasy, based on classical Greek models. Just think how awkward it would be to hold something like that, unless those spear shafts were the size of pencils Now if arm straps were used, this would be quite easy, but how many examples do we have of Roman shields with arm straps? (that's not meant as a smart #$!! question, I'm asking it for real...) Most of the shields I am aware of have a central hand grip. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 9/18/04 3:25 am<br></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Lucius,<br>
<br>
You could do it, holding two smaller spears with your thumb nad the shield with the rest of your hand. I've done it, it's not practical for long but possible.<br>
<br>
About those questions you wanted to ask me, mail me at fectioAThotmail.com<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Hi Robert,<br>
I have sent an e-mail to your address... <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Lucius,<br>
<br>
When? Apparently it did not arrive...<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Hi Robert!<br>
I sent the mail to the address you gave me, it may be a problem because of being in different countries? I am just guessing...I also tried twice to e-mail you on the Fectio site, but I don't know if my mail is getting through.<br>
I will ask you the questions here. I wanted to know what was the measurement in inches that you placed your nails apart on the plywood to mark off your shield?<br>
Also, I have seen on one reenactment site from Britain that the "dots" in the ends of the spoke pattern on the insignia for the Secunda Britannica were painted black, and I notice that yours were painted pale blue, and on another site about the Notitia Dignitatum they look very dark, but the image is so small I cannot make it out. I know you have done research on the Notitia Dignitatum, and I was wondering if you can help me with the correct color for the "dots". I thought that perhaps if I couldn't arrive at a conclusion, I would paint mine a dark navy blue to strike a "happy medium", but I would much rather paint it as the Notia describes or shows it, if it can be determined.<br>
Anyway, those were the questions that I wished to ask you. Mainly if you could convert your measurements to inches for the shield measurements and let me know? Sadly, I was NEVER good at metrics in school... <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Lucius,<br>
<br>
My email works fine..somehow only yours does not get trough though.<br>
OK, answers:<br>
Inches? Ehhhh Well, I'd have to measure that.. I'll get back to you on that (muttering under his breath "how come the nations that gave us English also are still stuck with Inches" )<br>
You are right about the 'dots', mine were originally taken from another manuscript which left the boss and the dots the same color. I imagined that to be 'iron' and followed the blue color (pale? That depends on the light). In the MS which I later acquired from the British Library though, both dots <em>and</em> boss are black. Yup, boss as well - few groups follow that (Comitatus does) but the boss is sometimes painted as well. In this case, if you foloow the colors of this MS, it should be black.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Thank you so much, Robert, that is a great help to me. If it is too much trouble to measure, you needn't worry about it, it's no big deal. The color for the dots was worrying me, though, because I want our insignia to be as accurate as possible.So the boss should be painted black as well then? Thanks again! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 9/22/04 12:27 am<br></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Ok Guys. I have touched on this topic once before earlier in this thread, but I want to bring some questions forward. There are some who say there were no curved late Roman oval shields in existence, but look at these pics. One is the famous sculpture of the general Stilicho. What does it look like he's holding in his left hand? It appears to be a curved, oval shield to me. And then there is this 5th century Roman carving from Egypt, and it depicts the lower soldiers carrying curved shields. One cannot blow it off as artistic license altogether, because look at the soldiers in the top of the sculpture, they are clearly holding dished round shields. The sculpture depicts both types and shapes of shield at the same time. Could this be evidence (even if scant) that curved oval shields did indeed exist? This carving is dated to the 5th century, which means the artist surely saw with his own eyes the soldiers who might have been models for his artwork. And these two sculptures were by two different people from two different places. How do you explain that?<br>
<img src="http://www.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Stilicho.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<img src="http://www.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/5thCenturyEgyptianCarving.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 9/22/04 4:54 am<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

No Lucius,<br>
I'm sorry but I cannot agree with you.<br>
First, Stylicho is clearly carrying a dished shield but almost the right half of it is obscured by the frame. About the slightly 'strange', left contour, I think that, for some reason, the carver just didn't want to obscure Stylicho's leg.<br>
Second, all the shields depicted on the Egyptian wooden carving are round and dished. If your referring to that carried by the soldier on the left foreground, it is simply broken, you only need to have a closer look at its radiate pattern to notice that.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Hi Aitor,<br>
It's not really the left or right side of Stilicho's shield I'm looking at, but rather the top and bottom. The top and bottom are straight, on a parallel plain with each other, not curving in towards Stilicho's body to suggest a concave shape...they still look curved to me... <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Of course please realize that I'm not stressing or implying that curved shields <em>did</em> exist, I'm just wondering from looking at these pics, and the photos on Britannia's web site, that's all. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 9/22/04 7:14 am<br></i>