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08-25-2004, 10:56 AM

A lot of times, writers use hugely inflated numbers to increase the scope of a battle. After all, writers before them wrote of 75,000 on each side or so. Since this would have been the biggest battle he ever saw, he may have inflated the numbers to reflect that. 
 
Also, if he was hostile to Constantine, and Constantine was outnumbered, then he probably inflated Constantine's numbers to make the side he supported look better, since he probably inflated their numbers accordingly. 
 
But then again, I could just be full of it too 
 
Cavetus

aitor iriarte · 08-25-2004, 03:49 PM

OK, I've been spending some time at my library and here go some sources: 
 
Lactantius (De mortibus, 44,5) says (sorry, I'm translating from a Spanish translation!): Constantine was warned in a dream so he would engrave on all the shields the heavenly sign of god and engage the battle that way. He does what he had been ordered and, rotating the letter X with its apex curved in a circle, engraves the name of christ on the shields' 
 
There is some discussion on the sign. If this translation is correct, then it wouldn't be a Xi-Ro but just a monogrammatic cross (i.e. a cross with its upper side ended like a ro) 
 
Eusebius (Vita Constantini, I, 28-31) tells the same story but without mentioning the shields. He says that Constantine made a vexillum (labarum) with the 'sign' and that he used it later in his war against Licinius (II, 7-9) 
 
Not very conclusive and both authors, unlike Zosimus, were nasty Galilean flatterers... 
 
Aitor

Theodosius the Great · 08-25-2004, 08:32 PM

Quote:<hr>(those) authors ... were nasty Galilean flatterers<hr> 
 
Yes, kind of like how Josephus was to the Flavians Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=theodosiusthegreat>Theodosius the Great</A> at: 8/25/04 10:35 pm

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-26-2004, 05:46 AM

Hi Aitor 
(tick tock tick tock) 
The idea of the rim and shrinking goes like this: if you fit the rawhide it shrinks and really fits. If there would be a shrinking of the shield, as you naughtily suggested, the rawhide would not shrink with it, come under a lot of stress and no doubt burst its stitching. This would happen with even a centimeter of shrinking. 
No matter if the material wasn't preserved, it was clear that rawhide was used for the rim. 
the only way you could have shrinking shields and a rawhide rim would be to adjust the rawhide every time the shield shrunk a bit - very impractical! 
That's why I doubt very much that round shields could shrink to an oval shape. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-26-2004, 05:52 AM

Hi Lucius, 
 
Mine was made in France by Jean Olivier Bourbon ([url=http://www.cannesetbatons.fr.st/" target="top]www.cannesetbatons.fr.st/[/url]), who will make you a nearly-correct (can I say that Aitor? ) dished shield, and even paint it for you in a design of your choice. Last time I asked him (May) he asked ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬250 for a complete one. He will mail them anywhere. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 8/27/04 7:32 am

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-26-2004, 06:15 AM

Hi Theo, 
 
Good man! 
The Chi-rho was not a very common design, not with the field army units anyway. But it was seen at least with two emperor's guards, Justinian of course (on the Ravenna mosaic) and Valentinian III (on a dish) if I remember correctly. 
 
But it has also been found on armour, namely on two helmets, one found in Richborough and the other near Venlo (Netherlands). 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 8/27/04 7:34 am

aitor iriarte · 08-26-2004, 06:24 AM

Mmmmh ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬250 already! Better if we order ASAP... 
BTW, the link doesn't go to anywhere for me1 
About shrinking, my far-fetched theory was about wood's post-depositional shrinkage in a dry enviroment, nothing to do with the shields' operative life! 
 
Aitor

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-26-2004, 11:06 PM

That link didn't work for me either... Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

08-26-2004, 11:21 PM

Same here. I blame Lucius 
 
Cavetus

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-27-2004, 02:21 AM

Hey! I heard that! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-27-2004, 05:36 AM

The link should work now, simple typo... 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Theodosius the Great · 08-27-2004, 06:30 AM

Valerius, 
 
Quote:<hr>The Cho-rho was not a very common design, not with the field army units anyway<hr> 
 
I did qualify my answer by saying that I didn't know how long the Chi-Ro was the most widely used shield blazon. But it was, at least briefly. When Constantine ordered his men to paint a chi-ro on their shields on the eve of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge it became ,overnight, the most widely used symbol. How long that lasted I don't know. I do know Constantine went on to rule the empire for twenty-seven years. Remember, he was very supertitious even by ancient pagan standards. Don't you think he'd might want his men to retain the symbol whenever he went into battle after his victory at the Milvian Bridge ? I don't think it sounds far-fetched remembering that he carried the Labarum into all his future battles after his victory over Maxentius.

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-27-2004, 07:43 AM

Hi Theo, 
 
About that Chi-Rho symbol, it may have lasted longer than you think in some particular units. 
IÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ve just read an article by David Woods (Woods, David (1996): The Scholae Palatinae and the Notitia Dignitatum, in: JRMES 7, pp. 37-50) (Aitor, am I not a busy student? ). The author in my opinion rather convincingly argues for an identification of the shield designs shown for the magister officiorum of the east and the magister officiorum of the west with the scholae palatinae. 
<img src="http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/MagisterOfficiorum.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/MagisterOfficiorumWest.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Even more so, he argues that the 8-spoked shield design on the top right is a debased Chi-Rho symbol. The Oxford MS of the Notitia Dignitatum shows 8 spokes, but the Munich MS shows but 6 on both shields. Also, the small dots very much look like the ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“jewelsÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ on the Chi-Rho shown on the shield on one of JustinianÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s guards on the Ravenna mosaic, whereas both colour schemes match as well. 
<img src="http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/images/109images/early_christian/san_vitale/justinian.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Woods concluded that this shield represented two of the scholae regiments that accompanied the Emperor, one in the east and the other in the West. I should, however, mention that the Madrid missorium of Theodosius I shows two soldiers with 8-spoked designs on their shield. 
<img src="http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/images/109images/early_christian/missorium/missorium.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
I owe you the image of the Geneva missorium of Valentinian III, which also shows shields with a Chi-Rho I think. 
 
I would like to add that if these Chi-Rho symbols are indeed meant to be represented on the plates of the magistri officiorum, it might be argued that when Constantine I ordered ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“his soldiersÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ to paint the Chi-Rho symbol on their shields, this might not have meant the whole army but just his personal regiments, the scholae. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 8/27/04 2:02 pm

Theodosius the Great · 08-27-2004, 08:26 AM

Ave, Valerius. 
 
Very impressive evidence. 
 
Quote:<hr>this might not have meant the whole army but just his (Constantine's) personal regiments, the scholae<hr> 
 
Do you mean right before the Milvian Bridge victory or after ? 
 
Do the scholae count as a field army ? 
 
Here's Peter Conolly's version of the battle : 
<img src="http://members.aol.com:/rcasti998/mb1" style="border:0;"/> 
<img src="http://members.aol.com:/rcasti998/mb2" style="border:0;"/> 
 
 
-Theo 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=theodosiusthegreat>Theodosius the Great</A> at: 8/27/04 11:13 am

Uwe Bahr · 08-27-2004, 10:35 AM

Theo, 
 
this painting of Peter Connolly is absolutely new for me - where, in which book, did You find it? 
 
Uwe

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