Gladiatorial battles at Colosseum

[Jona Lendering]

It just wasn't a very good venue for gladiators.

That depends; accounts of the Circus Maximus fights are often about armies and large groups of animals fighting against each other, whereas the Colosseum was the scene of a different type of spectacle. We read more often about individual fights and learn the names of the gladiators.

Besides, the Colosseum served for executions (the mythological tableaux vivants that had until then been displayed on the slopes of the Vatican). The Colosseum was built for a different type of show: the execution of religious criminals and individual fights.

[PhilusEstilius]

I have to agree Jona with what went on in the circus, however the main thing that comes to the minds of all would be that epic of Charlton Heston.

[panairjdde]

Umberto Broccoli is an archaeologist who takes care of the archaeological remains of Rome for the Major of Rome. He proposes to re-create the games in the Coliseum as close as possible to the original ones, even re-creating the same noises and the same smells that there were in the Coliseum. He also proposes to read aloud, among the fights, some writings of Seneca about gladiator's life.

However, the vice-Major Cutrufo has ruled out the possibility for games in the Coliseum, as well as for chariot races in the Circus Maximus, as he is planning to create a sort of Roman "Disneyland" in the Archaeological Park of Appian Way.

"Tornino al Colosseo i combattimenti tra i gladiatori"

Ma il Campidoglio ora frena: "Niente show nell'Anfiteatro"

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Well, my advise would be: go to the Circus Maximus. It was the place for gladiatoral contests until the Colosseum was built, so it has just as much claim to be "the" historical site; and besides, it will be easier for the public to find a seat.

That's not correct. At the Circus Maximus were animal hunts (venationes) staged and only occasionally gladiatorial fights. But usually these were held either at one of the fora (at first Forum Boarium and then Forum Romanum), the audience sat on wooden tiers which were dismantled after each munus. Then there were in the time of Nero wooden amphitheaters such as that of Statilius Taurus on Campus Martius.

In the 3rd century there was the private Amphitheatrum Castrense errected. Rome did not really had a large stone amphitheater until the opening of the Colosseum (Amphitheatrum Flavium) in 80 AD. One reason was that due to an old tradition the senate did not favor a stone building for munera, hence the wooden tiers which you could dismantle after the show. In Campania though they built stone amphitheaters much earlier, the one in Pompeii dates from 80 BC.

[Jona Lendering]

Umberto Broccoli ... proposes to re-create the games in the Coliseum as close as possible to the original ones, ... He also proposes to read ... some writings of Seneca about gladiator's life.

"As close as possible" is a bit strange, as Seneca was dead when the Colosseum was built... :wink:

At the Circus Maximus were animal hunts (venationes) staged and only occasionally gladiatorial fights.

True, but it does not invalidate my main point: that any reconstruction, especially the ones as close as possible to the original ones, in the Colosseum, is tasteless, because that was also an execution theater.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

They never executed anyone at games before the Colosseum was built? :? Just wondering?

[Doc]

I read the articles that panairjdde posted and I must say that the vice mayor is simply daft. Basically he wants to set up a theme park ancient Roman Style" where he suggests games and rides of ancient Rome.

He also suggests that after seeing this theme park, people will become curious and would like to see the real thing.

Yeah, when you go on vacation with kids, they would let the parents run to see the originals. I went to Disney with my kids. It was non-stop 9 hours/ day for 8 days.

Why did he not save himself time and wind by saying "I want to make money and a Roman Disney is necessary".

Jona,

There is nothing strange with "as close as possible" since there were other gladiatorial battles before the Coloseum were there not? Thus being that the Coloseum is world famous and gladiator battles went on there, then why not adopt what Seneca wrote about in a theatre where such things might have occurred.

Also the comment about tasteless. This is yet another way of saying that society has become soft and we should handle it with cotton balls. Unless the violence is categorized as fiction or sport then it is ok.

I am not suggesting that executions should be held but then not every single aspect has to be shown. Actually, one could announce at the "show" that executions were part of what went on without having to get graphic.

However, a hyppocrisy exists (Not you Jona just about the world in general). People will look at movies like "Saw" that are horridly graphic in the dissmemberment of people but it is ok since it is fiction. But showing a mock execution at the Coloseum is tasteless because it happened for real.

Need we go on:

This is the universal mentality of most people: Extreme fighting (sport), you tube videos showing people being blown up (this is real but does not mostly go on in Europe or America so being that it does not affect us dierectly who cares), Boxing (sport)etc... Come on lets get real.

[Jona Lendering]

They never executed anyone at games before the Colosseum was built? :? Just wondering?

Of course they did, but as far as I know, it was not part of the gladiatoral contests themselves - except for those bandits that were condemned to the sword. A typical visit to the Colosseum gave people three things:

(a) Fights between and against animals
(b) Mythological tableaux vivants: the execution of criminals
© Gladiators

Before the Colosseum was built, these things happened on different locations: (a) and © in the Circus and -as Svenja correctly says- at the Forum; (b) at the Vatican.

Because (b) is to all standards disgusting, I think we should not use the Colosseum (or Saint Peter's Square) for gladiatoral reenactment; let these places be monuments for people who were killed for beliefs that (in our view) were innocent. Although I personally think that the cross that is now in the Colosseum is not the right type of memorial -there were Jews executed as well- it is fitting to have a monument over there, and I think it is wrong to do a reenactment show in front of it.

[Doc]

Jona,

I agree that the cross is out of place or any religious symbol for that matter.

It would be wrong to do gladatorial reenactment in front of those places if executions were the only thing going on. But why must me constantly hover over this one instant. Other things went on and it is this that could be shown. As I mentioned above, it would not be wrong to mention to the folk watching that there were times that executions of "innocent" people occurred. As was rightly pointed out, in "our view" many innocent were executed.

However, because it is our view, we should not impose it on the ancients. By the way, no one is innocent. We are all guilty of something to varying degrees. Thus what they considered criminal we cannot judge for if we judge the ancients by our standards, then why talk or study them at all. If they were a grotesque society with good engineering skills it sort of makes the entire point moot. We have religious criminals today in the modern world and the reason they get away with everything is because we are soft.

We cannot categorically say that religious criminals were only exectued for their beliefs. Religious writers would love to have you believe that. How do we know that they did not carry out attacks on Roman people or officials quoting something from their beliefs i.e. a Christian saying when slaying an "enemy". Does anyone think that such an act would be written by religious writers and spoil their "perfection"?

Does it not strike anyone odd that relgious people that were executed were always inoccent as if they were perfect and everyone else is wrong.

I am Roman Catholic and what I said above is in no way an attack on Christianity or the like. However, we must step away and look at the issue in crude form which sometimes is a little difficult to handle.

[Jona Lendering]

Hi Paolo

I can agree with most of what you say; indeed, we must be able to leave behind the past, and can not allow ourselves to be blackmailed by the fact that people -innocent or not- were killed at a place. Still, I think that in this case, while Rome has places to offer that are equally suited and have an equal claim to be historically accurate spot, we should look to those places.

/J

[A_Volpe]

so now what happens with the colosseum gets damaged, inevitably, buy moronic tourists, disrepectful teenagers and vandals, and "accidents"?

[Doc]

Jona,

Point well taken. Thanks for the excellent discussion.

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

You have to distinct what part of the program of a munus you wanna show today. A munus in the Imperial time was like this - as Jona had mentioned:

1. in the morning animal hunts, which were animals against animals or animals against professional animal fighters (venatores)
2. executions in the noon time. These could have been mass battles of the victims, victims fighting animals but without weapons hence no chance to win against the animal or any other kind of display.
3. gladiator fights in the afternoon. As mentioned several times in the Ancient Combat section a gladiator is a professional fighter trained for this job.

I assume that none of the gladiator reenactment groups would put on the first two points of a munus. All those group concentrate on the third point of the program of a munus so I don't see a problem to put up a show like that in the Colosseum. The only problem I see there is that compared to other amphitheaters it is a ruin while the amphitheater in Pompeii, Verona, Trier etc. are in a much better shape and in those buildings you more likely get the atmosphere what it was back then in a packed amphitheater.

The Vatican in Roman time was just another hill and an amphitheater was used to be there like that of Statilius Taurus on the Campus Martius. But today both places are built over so no traces of those amphitheaters are to be seen anymore.

When thinking of holding a gladiatorial show in Rome and not going to Pompeii of Verona the field of the Circus Maximus is most appropriate because of the shape it has to today. A large field where they also already staged concerts etc. so you could errect temporary seats there and as long as you don't use the complete field but just one corner of it and arrange the seating all around (amphitheatron) then it could get something of an authentic touch.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

so now what happens with the colosseum gets damaged, inevitably, buy moronic tourists, disrepectful teenagers and vandals, and "accidents"?

That happens today anyway.....sadly! Graffitti perpertrators, I will refrain from calling them 'artists', are everywhere and have no respect for anything anyway, apart from spraying their 'tags' all over anything.

The more a place is used, it will discourage them I would think.
I could be wrong though.

[Jona Lendering]

Picking up this old thread, here's my blog post. The Colosseum must not become a carnival act.