Women in the roman army? (Combatants)

[Lanista]

What about historical fantasy - that way you can you do what you like with the novel and keep the trappings "accurate" whilst operating under the conciet that in this world, women are in the legions. Paul Kearney just did a hist/fant based on Xenophon and of course Iggulden is famous for this fantasy take on Caesar.

Cheers

Russ

[Ron Andrea]

Agree with Robert. We've certainly reached the point where we're just having fun with the idea because there seems little likelihood such a thing could really have happened.

That said, downed allied fliers did masquerade as German soldiers. Sometimes the least likely ruse is the one that works.

So, Thomas needs to explain why and how the woman in question was motivated to attempt this, and perhaps who helped her and why. :roll:

[M. Demetrius]

Or maybe we should just forget the whole thing?

[texascavtrooper]

I AGREE jUST FORGET IT!!!!!!! P P

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

... and again we've reached the point, where Monty Python has the adequate answer
Life of Brian - men acting as women disguised as men execute stoning sentence

Disclaimer: The following footage is in no way meant to support the idea of women serving in the Roman army. Just had to share this

Women Soldiers of the Civil War hock: hock: hock:

[Sean Manning]

That raises another point: even if your female could disguise herself to look like a soldier, she probably wouldn't know how to act like one.

Assuming she somehow interposed herself, appropriately attired and somehow carrying the weight, in the ranks, the first time a command was given and she responded wrong, everyone around her would be thinking, "This new-bee is going to get me killed."

Followed by a closer look at the strange soldier. At which point the charade falls apart. :oops:

I think the idea is that she volunteers during a time when nobody is asking too many questions, say the civil wars of -I or +III. Mary Read did manage to live and fight in two regiments of foot, a regiment of horse, and a pirate ship for some time without being detected as a woman. It would be harder in the Roman world because they were more casual about male nudity, but not quite impossible in a period of disorder.

But this is a silly topic which we should probably drop

[L. Marius Victor]

That raises another point: even if your female could disguise herself to look like a soldier, she probably wouldn't know how to act like one.

Assuming she somehow interposed herself, appropriately attired and somehow carrying the weight, in the ranks, the first time a command was given and she responded wrong, everyone around her would be thinking, "This new-bee is going to get me killed."

Followed by a closer look at the strange soldier. At which point the charade falls apart. :oops:

I honestly dont think it could even get that far. It is my understanding that the eight man conteburnium got to know each other pretty well (id say the conteburium would be equal to a modern day squad). And from my own experience in the military, after a couple of years serving together, you get to know everyone in your platoon (my platoon had 68 enlisted Marines and 1 officer). And trust me, a new guy sticks out like a sore thumb. So the whole attaching yourself to a unit without them noticing, yeah, im not buying it. Women are not allowed to serve in the infantry even today, and so i never worked around women, and there was no way for a women to pretend, either. Besides the obvious physicals and what not, the Marines still utilize community showers, heads without stalls, and so on (a head is a bathroom, by the way).

[Tarbicus]

I'm in no way supporting the idea that women served as combatants in the Roman army. However it should be noted that:

Women served on both sides during the American Civil War; a period that had many social restrictions on women.

One such woman was able to disguise herself as a man for months before being discovered. I can only assume she was in close contact with her fellow combatants for that period. However, I think there was a far more modest approach to the public display of the body in those times compared to the Roman period. But there is one who served for two years in a regiment, was wounded, and discharged, all without being discovered. Sarah Edmonds Seelye (aka Franklin Thompson) received a military pension. Another served for three years and the absence of not needing to shave was just accepted as.... a need to not shave.
http://www.archives.gov/publications/pr ... war-1.html (an fascinating read, and I urge you to read it to the end).
http://www.archives.gov/publications/pr ... sition.jpg

There are lots of finds attributed to a female presence in Roman forts. Without definitive proof that they were from the wives of common soldiers, any assertion that they were wives is a theory, and could be a simple assumption based on predetermined prejudice that has been simply accepted by everyone. Unless someone has documentary evidence otherwise, and not concerning the wives of the legate, etc?


I'm only pointing these things out, not making a case. But it does show that it is possible for a woman to pass herself off as a man in a male-only military environment for a considerable amount of time, and in a historical context, not a modern one. A man in the army now would certainly need to pee in public standing up, but those Roman latrines do look designed for sitting :wink:

I personally doubt a woman could maintain the deception for more than a week at a stretch in the Roman standing army. But I'm not so sure about that for the Republican army when it was a citizen militia. Where a woman comabatant who fought at Antietem could disguise herself for years, a woman in the pre-Marian Roman army only had to do it for months.

[L. Marius Victor]

I'm in no way supporting the idea that women served as combatants in the Roman army. However it should be noted that:

Women served on both sides during the American Civil War; a period that had many social restrictions on women.

The American Civil War era is a whole other thing. With the amount of clothing they wore (full sleeved undershirt, under drawers, vest, wool trousers, wool sack coat, forage cap or slouch hat) it was much easier to hide your identity. Also, their bathing habits during that time period were questionable..... The majority of the soldiers during the civil war served in state militias, and only for the duration of the war, so cannot be classified as "professional" soldiers. The professional soldiers were those who served in the "U.S. Regulars" ([url:1w0catzy]http://www.sykesregulars.org/[/url]), the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps. Units with names such as the 39th New York, the 20th Maine, etc. were raised locally, and it is generally understood that these units were not as "squared away", so to speak, as the professional Army (as it applies to discipline, experience, and training). So, with a desperate need for soldiers on both sides, it is understandable that standards were lowered and some things overlooked.

Also, Id like to add that I think women had many more social restrictions in ancient Rome than in the U.S. at any time. I read somewhere (I dont remember where) that if a man was unhappy with his wife or children he could strangle them or sell them into slavery if he chose to...but I could be wrong.

[Proximus]

I honestly dont think it could even get that far. It is my understanding that the eight man conteburnium got to know each other pretty well (id say the conteburium would be equal to a modern day squad). And from my own experience in the military, after a couple of years serving together, you get to know everyone in your platoon (my platoon had 68 enlisted Marines and 1 officer). And trust me, a new guy sticks out like a sore thumb. So the whole attaching yourself to a unit without them noticing, yeah, im not buying it. Women are not allowed to serve in the infantry even today, and so i never worked around women, and there was no way for a women to pretend, either. Besides the obvious physicals and what not, the Marines still utilize community showers, heads without stalls, and so on (a head is a bathroom, by the way).

I understand and agree with you. But I know too there was changes between cohorts in roman armies. Not a lot but with promotion, you changes of cohort. By example, it seems you could pass from 20th cohort to 19 cohort, etc, until first cohort, and then, you start again at 20th cohort with a superior grade.

So a cohort is not permanent, even if it moves very slowly. That's why I think if you want to put someone who does not have to be there, he should pretext he is from another cohort and moving.

If you consider it is time of war, after every battle, you have deads. So cohorts and legions are fulled and restructured. Again a pretext.

I am not saying women where in roman lines, but I say it is possible that someone may enter a cohort with a pretext. He just must know how the legions and cohorts are structured.

[L. Marius Victor]

But, if a Legionary did move to a different cohort, there should be some type of written orders, letter of introduction, or what not, that should tell the Centurion or whoever it concerns of the exchange. Without one, within just a few moments the "new guy" would be questioned by at least four or five leader types as to his/her identity and from what century,cohort, legion, etc that person was from....and without the proper documentation it could quickly go bad for that wannabe Legionary. In Goldsworthy's "The Complete Roman Army" there are examples of records showing where different Legionaries have been, and what they were doing. For example, the entry for M. Julius Felix states that on 1 Oct. he was on escort duty for Serenus, and on 6 Oct. was attached to Gate guard (p. 91, Duty roster for a century in Legio III Cyrenaica, Egypt, Late 1st century AD). With this type of record keeping its hard for me to believe that someone could just show up without being noticed, or even being ignored.

[Proximus]

Yes. Concidering you want to write a book about it, we may be a little more twisted in our thinking. If this girl have the complicity of a man in the legion, maybe he could give her the paper orders and then, she take his place (and he become a deserter and she become a legionair. But the problem is she will have to assume the role of the deserter until she have to change of cohort, so... it is difficult to admit, either.

So it is true it is difficult to admit for a girl. It would be a man, it would be easier : he will take his place and then share all the live with the others, without question about his chest or why he is not bumped between the legs.

A girl, that's an other affair. But if she just want to fight one battle, she can use this trick, I think. If she want to stay with the team, it seems to me it is not possible.