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Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany
#61
Is there *evidence* for the practice of Romans "policing" a battlefield for dropped items or spent weapons, or is that a modern assumption? I remember from several reenacting experiences how easy it is to lose a dropped item. It took half a dozen people more than 10 minutes to find a dropped MUSKET in knee-high grass in an area about 100 feet square. Smaller items will just disappear into dry leaves and such. Ballista bolts that have been shot into a hill side? Forget it!

The Germans seem to have been very unconcerned about collecting weapons for re-use or recycling. After Teutoberg Forest, they gathered up all the Roman gear and left it in piles in their sacred groves. We know from finds in Denmark and France that captured gear was often dumped in bogs and lakes. I'm not saying the Romans would leave obvious things like shields and armored men lying around, nor that the locals might not keep a few handy spears and swords if they had the chance, just that we shouldn't assume that metal objects were so valuable that an army would carefully comb the ground after a battle to make sure they'd gotten everything.

Somewhere in Britain there is a site which was apparently an artillery practice range. Presumably they found a ton of ballista bolt heads there, too. I agree that the other finds from this new site (and the apparent lack of earthworks) makes it more likely a battlefield, but there are many ways to lose small items in the woods!

And I don't want to sound TOO much like a wet blanket! It's a neat find.

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#62
Where´s that shooting range in Britain? - sounds interesting!
Marian
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#63
Ave,

Just thought I would add my two denarii on this. The finds are important, but overall at this point will not add anything to our understanding of Roman , equipment , armor etc. It is Where the items were found that is the real issue!

The Where issue also raises a lot of questions, was this the farthest point of this expedition? Were these troops on their way back to the Limes? or still moving forward after the "battle/skirmish" If a punitive expedition , were they in pursuit of someone , or tribe??....and what happened to the literary and other possible records of this action. The so called punitive actions were always thought to be relatively local.

So sure there is always some hype to this, ( Thats how you get the Grant Funding) This is a major find that will require rethinking of some of our opinions on this period.

Regards from the Balkans. Arminius Primus aka Al
ARMINIVS PRIMVS

MACEDONICA PRIMA

aka ( Al Fuerst)




FESTINA LENTE
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#64
Quote:"-The fact that the weapons were left "on site" still riddles the excavators and an international circle of scientists/scholars will be constituted to discuss the "open" questions"

Either side would have "policed" the battlefield after a battle. The Romans
to keep weapons and metal to make weapons from the enemy and for salvage purposes - The "Barbarians" to reuse the weapons and metal.
.

Further north the "barbarians" would happily sacrifice equipment from even larger forces, so I don't think salvaging for reuse was an imperative
for the barbs

Maybe the victorious force - whoever it might be - was pressed for time
and couldn't search the the battlefield as thoroughly as they may have wished.

Anyway is the lack of germanic equipment so far puzzling.

Anyway is the lack of germanic equipment puzzling
Soren Larsen aka Nithijo/Wagnijo
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#65
Amazing. You'd think a military expedition of that magnitude (distance, if not size) would have been at least hinted at in the histories.

Who would have had the manpower or ambition to press that far beyond the Rhine-Main-Danube frontier anytime after Teutoberg, not to mention in the third century?
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
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#66
Quote:Is there *evidence* for the practice of Romans "policing" a battlefield for dropped items or spent weapons, or is that a modern assumption?

There is some evidence that I thought of, although it is from a much earlier period (and deals not just with Romans, but also with other pre-Roman Italic peoples.) Try Bietti Sestieri's The Iron-Age Community of Osteria dell'Osa.

I remember some good quotes about this. Unfortunately time is tight around Christmas, but I will try to dig them up if you like.
David J. Cord
www.davidcord.com
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#67
Quote:Hi y' all:
Further References: (Update ??)

According to the German journal "Der Spiegel" more than 300 (!!!) catapult bolts have been found. Confusedhock:

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,596619,00.html

Only the iron heads, no wooden parts, unfortunately...
Guido
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#68
Quote:The Germans seem to have been very unconcerned about collecting weapons for re-use or recycling. After Teutoberg Forest, they gathered up all the Roman gear and left it in piles in their sacred groves.
The key word here is "sacred" -- it wasn't that the Germans were "unconcerned", but that they were indeed "re-using" weaponry as dedications to their gods.
Quote:We know from finds in Denmark and France that captured gear was often dumped in bogs and lakes.
Again, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, "dumped" is a terribly loaded term. The captured gear was probably dedicated to the watery gods.
Quote:I'm not saying the Romans would leave obvious things like shields and armored men lying around, nor that the locals might not keep a few handy spears and swords if they had the chance, just that we shouldn't assume that metal objects were so valuable that an army would carefully comb the ground after a battle to make sure they'd gotten everything.
Maybe just "almost" everything, then? :wink:
Quote:Somewhere in Britain there is a site which was apparently an artillery practice range.
You're probably thinking of Burnswark, which I have argued was actually under siege. (The older theory, that it was an artillery range, seems very unlikely to me, but still pops up from time to time.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#69
I got the impression it was the seige idea that was the older of the theories. At least that is the way it is put accross in a couple of books I have read. :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#70
Quote:Matthew Amt wrote:
The Germans seem to have been very unconcerned about collecting weapons for re-use or recycling. After Teutoberg Forest, they gathered up all the Roman gear and left it in piles in their sacred groves.

The key word here is "sacred" -- it wasn't that the Germans were "unconcerned", but that they were indeed "re-using" weaponry as dedications to their gods.

It sounds like what the Gauls did as well.

Quote: ...the Aruveni show you a small sword hanging up in a temple, which they say was taken from Caesar. Caesar saw this afterwards himself, and smiled, and when his friends advised it should be taken down, would not permit it, because he looked upon it as consecrated.

Plutarch, Caesar
David J. Cord
www.davidcord.com
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#71
Quote:I got the impression it was the seige idea that was the older of the theories. At least that is the way it is put accross in a couple of books I have read. :?
Must be old books, Byron! Smile

The antiquarian accounts of 18th/19th C certainly assumed that it had been a siege, but the late Roy Davies wrote an influential paper in 1972, proposing the "artillery range" or "practise siege works" theory. You'll still see this theory presented as fact today -- the latest (afaik) is David Breeze's new-ish booklet on [amazon]Roman frontiers in Britain[/amazon], where he presents it as fact. My Britannia article (2003) presents all the facts and comes down on the side of a genuine siege, but I guess the "artillery range" idea (although illogical and unsubstantiated) is too attractive for some folks to abandon!
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#72
It's a good find, all the same.
The large amount of ballista bolts would argue for a set battle, the Romans drawn up and unleashing several salvo's into the advancing Germans. A map with the distridution of the finds in relation to the terrain would be most helpfull. The bolts make up the mayority of the finds, others are mostly also projectile weapons (spear and arrowheads). No sword or the likes was recovered, as these are left with the body and more easily recovered, as is any other gear. An ax could well be carried into battle and thrown (thus lost) if the need arose. A pugio scabbard could well become unstuck in the flurry of battle.
As argued, if the area was lush with grass, a good few objects were bound to be left laying. Hit a white golfball into the rough and your chances are 50 - 50 of dropping a stroke :lol: !
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#73
Quote:A map with the distribution of the finds in relation to the terrain would be most helpful. The bolts make up the majority of the finds, others are mostly also projectile weapons (spear and arrowheads).
That's what they did with Little Big Horn, Robert. Plotted the find-spots of the bullet cartridges. The results were fascinating.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#74
One of the articles I read (don't remember which one) said that the orientation of the bolts etc in the ground was recorded. That may give additional clues to the firing positions.
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#75
.... an intermediate round-up on the subject in English (as well a a good number of links) is to be found here :
http://adrianmurdoch.typepad.com/my_web ... art-2.html

(Weell done, methinks)

Simplex

Just in case I forgot it : A smashingly good 2009 to you all.
Siggi K.
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