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How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners)
#76
Peace, please... It's Critsmas...

Well, to add even more possibilitys, what about to use some kind of button and loop atachment to carry the sword?

[Image: 1200955173Celtic-Toggle-1-cs.jpg]
Button and loop items are atested in a huge proportion asociated to military camps, and i think it's more possible there are associated with the weaponry than with the dress.

You can pass the button in a hole in your belt, and use the loop part to fasten the leather atached to the sword.

Is a method suggested in Christian Miks, Studien zur Romischen Schwertbewaffnung in der Kaiserzeit, 2007, page 245, abb. 44.

He have based that hypothetical way of gladius suspension in a find from Vindonissa, where a gladius, a button and loop fastener and some belt pieces were found together. The button and loop were found at the back of the gladius scabbard, suggesting a close connexion between both items.
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#77
Andy,

My problem with the pugio being worn at an angle, the use of straps to suspend it and the belt passing over the baldric, is not that there are one or two ancient depictions which show otherwise - it is that there is not a single shred of evidence to say that the Romans did these things, while there is plenty of evidence to say that the Romans did not feel it necessary to secure the baldric with a waist belt, that they attached pugiones level with frogs by using laces or something similar, and they seemed to think it correct to consisently show pugiones being suspended vertically.

I am not saying for a moment that we have enough evidence to state catagorically that this or that was not done, but if we are to avoid moving into the realm of fantasy and possible fiction we need to stick with the evidence we have and see what we can do with that. Don't forgat also that what may seem like 'common sense' to us today may not have seemed like common sense to the Romans. It is true that practices probably differed in different parts of the empire, but until some evidence shows up for what those other practices were we should stick with what the evidence we do have tells us. We have to assume some things, but is seems irresponsible to make assumptions which fly in the face of what the evidence says.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#78
Quote:
Gaius Julius Caesar:ioo7qj86 Wrote:Trajans column Jim. (That is also wher you will see many gladii at different levels.)
What!? That's clutching at straws now, mate! I don't think Crispvs has anything to worry about, or are you having a TC seg made based on the mind's eye of urban sculptors who probably never saw real live legionaries in their lives, much less ones kitted out for battle in Dacia?

What do the Adamklissi metopes show?

Quote:amoungst many, including republican images such as the afore mentioned Ahenobarbus sarcophegus.
If you wear a gladius in the position shown on many stelle, ie vertical infront of the thigh, it rides on the leg, gets in the way. I doubt a Roman would put up with it for more than a pace or 2.
Why is your gladius smack bang in front of the thigh? It should be at the side and forward a bit.

Go to the RAT Imagebase and take a good look through the full size grave stelae, especially the quality ones from the 1st C. The only time the gladius is leaning forwards is when the soldier is physically holding it forwards, and that especially includes Minucius Lorarius. Some gladii may be slightly forward, but even that's mostly when the arm seems to be resting on it. As for pugios, they're pointed straight up at the heavens except for Minucius Lorarius again, but that a completely horizontal one across his midriff anyway.

Well if we go by the Adamklissi monument, then the top of the scabbard is depicted at armpit level, and no baldric. How do you do that one I wonder?

And it is grave stele that depict the sword right in front of the leg Jim, so no need to get uptight. And there are ones where the sword is to the side
and are slightly canted, no hands on even. I will go with that as a model, as I know it works. :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#79
Quote:Well if we go by the Adamklissi monument, then the top of the scabbard is depicted at armpit level, and no baldric. How do you do that one I wonder?

Let's just say the sense of proprtion by the sculptor ain't Michelangelo's.

Quote:And it is grave stele that depict the sword right in front of the leg Jim, so no need to get uptight.

No there aren't; not a single one I can find. Here's the full length ensemble from the RAT Imagebase to demonstrate:

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/ (okay, this one looks naturally, canted, so one in twenty re-enactors should wear their scabbards canted :wink: )
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

You're hanging your sword wrong for an average legionary. :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#80
Who says I'm average tho'? :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#81
Now, go to page 167 HRR, bottom left, what do you see?
And the image to the left, canted forward too. Smile

And even the Adamklissi shows the scabbards canted on page 170.


Then Firmus has a cant to his sword on page 88.

And I see Crispus actually believes that things would go with what a wearer feels comfortable with from their experience, in regards to armour for a centurion, even though there is no sculptural or archaological evidence to back up his 'feeling' on that issue, so I really don't follow the logic of sticking so desperately to the rule of a vertical gladius and pugio, where there are actual depictions of a variety of ways to wear them. Smile
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#82
Well Byron,

I could just start by saying that we have far, far, far more evidence for how weapons were carried, including wear patterns on surviving artifacts, than we do for what centuriones wore, and leave it at that. When you find a report which demonstates wear patterns which are not consistent with the sculptural evidence please tell me. I will certainly wish to read it.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#83
So you say weapons were never canted. No other possibility?
Lets say I would disagree.
When you have a truely representative range of wear samples to prove a theory then I will whole heartedly agree. I see the sculptural evidence says there were more ways to skin a cat, so I would imagine there will be the evidence to back it up, eventually. Then again there may never be either.....modern chemcals play havoc on remains, at a rapid rate, so who knows if we will ever find all the evidence.

One tree a forest does not make. :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#84
Wear your sword the way I do and you will find that it normally hangs vertically but sometimes tilts forward slightly. It is the method of wearing the sword that I concerned with. Going with the evidence can sometimes produce a "canted" effect in the case of swords. However, the same does not apply to daggers as they seem to have been quite secure on their belts.

"One tree a forest does not make. "

Ah, so true. But then, no trees in a forest makes even less. :wink:

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#85
Quote:Wear your sword the way I do and you will find that it normally hangs vertically but sometimes tilts forward slightly. It is the method of wearing the sword that I concerned with. Going with the evidence can sometimes produce a "canted" effect in the case of swords. However, the same does not apply to daggers as they seem to have been quite secure on their belts.

"One tree a forest does not make. "

Ah, so true. But then, no trees in a forest makes even less. :wink:

Crispvs

Even well secured, you can still achieve a cant to the dagger!

And a forest with no trees is often refered to as a field! :wink: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#86
I think that many are now begining to cling to to many branches, but putting that aside the only evidence we have about how things were worn is indeed from sculpture and monuments. Then if anyone want's to start talking about evidence why do so many just ignore some of it and use only what they want to use, for as I asked some time back without any reply as yet why is there a ring on a beltplate. Infact not just one beltplate but many others that have been found all over Europe, then of course there is the age old question that no one has yet ever answered Why does a Sword and aDagger scabbard have four rings??
Brian Stobbs
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#87
Brian,

Quite simply, the sword scabbard and dagger sheath had four suspension rings because their Spanish ancestors had four suspension rings. The Iberian warriors used all four of these rings. The Romans don't seem to have done so but they were sticklers for tradition (which for many Romans was more important than virtually any other consideration past what they were going to eat) and so they kept all four rings, even though they didn't use them all. Remember that they were not like us and they did not think like us.
Also, when you say we are depending only on sculptures, that is not correct. I am talking about the physical evidence as well. Wear and tear is often an excellent instructor in how things were really used, and archaeological finds can increase our understanding of or confirm what we see in sculpture.
No-one is denying the existence of a number of second and early third century belt plates with rings cast onto them - I have seen more than one myself - but I think that you have wedded yourself for years now to a single explanation of what these are for when really we can only theorise. Unlike sword and dagger suspension these rings have not yet been recognised in the depictional record so their true function must remain unsure at this stage.
I feel obliged to say here, I am afraid, that I feel that the interpretation you have placed on them is perhaps needlessly complicated (not of course that the Romans were not perfectly capable of complicating things unnecessarily anyway) and that it is an answer to a problem which does not really exist. I draw a gladius from a scabbard on a regular basis. My scabbard is suspended from a baldric and my military belt is not passed over it. Therefore the scabbard is free to move. That said, I *never* have any problem drawing my sword. I do not have to hold it in place either by hand or by use of anything else. Gravity ensures that its own weight stops the scabbard from rising inconveniently as the sword is drawn and thus no complication arises and the sword is easy to draw, despite the scabbard not being held in place be anything apart from the baldric. Next time we are up on Hadrians Wall come and see us again (as I recall you did at Chesters a few years ago) and I will demonstrate for you just how easy it is to draw a sword from a scabbard like this. I may even let you have a go yourself.

I don't know what the function of that ring on those plates is, but I don't believe it would make any difference in how a scabbard could be used. From my own experience of simply trying to follow what the evidence shows I have found that there simply is no issue which would need to be overcome by such a ring. Obviously these rings were for something. The problem is that we simply do not know what. What we do need to do though is to start thinking about all of the other possibilities for what they are for, try these theories out to weed out those which simple are not workable and keep hold of the rest until some evidence turns up to refine our ideas a bit more.


Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#88
Quote:... then of course there is the age old question that no one has yet ever answered Why does a Sword and aDagger scabbard have four rings??
If you read the replies in the threads you posted your questions more carefully, you will discover that those questions had been answered, or at least possible answers were offered. The sword scabbards could have four rings to accommodate different ways of the scabbard suspension, such as
1) button and loop attachment as indicated by Cesar here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... e70#224559
and pictured in Miks II, Tafel 309 C:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 858#224858
2) with a strap going from the top ring to the bottom ring:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 924#211924
3) with a strap split:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 153#212153

In addition to what has been suggested by Crispvs, pugiones could have had four rings to accommodate both vertical and horizontal attachment if desired - see the aforementioned tomb of Minucius Lorarius here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#89
Brian and Crispus,

If you look on page 166HRR, there is a pugio suspended by a thin strap.

I can't help feel this may be depiction of what you are refering to Brian.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#90
I have seen what you refer to Byron however I don't think that the strap Facilis has for his dagger is what I refer to. The situation put forward by Dr. Christian Miks is as Cesar points out only a suggestion at this time, he may discover more evidence in the future to support his claim. Then of course the subject of strap going to top ring and bottom ring is not indeed a baldric, they are straps as mentioned by Byron in H. R. R. p166. When we look at the picture of the soldier of Palmyra he also is not wearing a badric. The point that I raised about a split baldric is a style that was originated by the oldest re-enactment group the ESG, which goes over the shoulder and splits at the rear to go to a top and bottom ring. This I have always considered to be an ill concieved idea about the baldric strap, and in no way is there any evidence for this method anywhere in monuments or otherwise.
Brian Stobbs
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