How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners)

[Rutilia]

I dunno. Given the propensity for military folk to wear things with a bit of variation, I don't really think there's one right way all the time in every case. Doesn't stop a given group from specifying that something be worn a certain way.

Even modern military folk aren't 100% uniform in appearance; there are always some differences here and there. Since it is often said that uniformity along modern lines wasn't likely in Roman times, how much more likely is individual variation in a formation? Different helms, possibly different armor types and so on.

All of this is pure conjecture and so anathema to many folk, but I suspect the pugio was worn both ways with perhaps one being more common than the other. People are people after all...if our gear has changed a lot over the centuries then our basic natures haven't so much.

In my own very personal opinion of course.

Rutilia

[PhilusEstilius]

Where a sword is slung on a baldric from top ring to top ring, then a beltplate with a ring on it placed at centre rear with a strap coming from a lower ring on the scabbard with a hook on it can help to swing a gladius to what ever position you want. The lower strap hooked to the beltplate also anchors the scabbard when the gladius is drawn, then on the march when the soldiers stop for a drink of water one can simply lift the sword away from the hip and sit down on a log or tree trunk with ease strapped to the hip one can't.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

To add more possibilitys to the discussion, what about a gladius with the top front and the rear low rings used?

Is, aparently, the method used in the depiction of some Palmyrene Gods :



That method used in a baldric can give some degree of angle to the position of the sword.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The depictions of the gladius worn at an angle may be showing the gladius hispaniensis, such as the Ahenobarbus relief. Those generally had only 2 rings at the back of the scabbard at first, like the Delos sword, so they would indeed hang at an angle.

Valete,

Matthew

Nope, some are on trajans column as well. :wink:

[Matthew Amt]

I dunno. Given the propensity for military folk to wear things with a bit of variation, I don't really think there's one right way all the time in every case. Doesn't stop a given group from specifying that something be worn a certain way.

Right--In MY group, the right way is the way we *know* the Romans did it. No need to make anything up.

All of this is pure conjecture and so anathema to many folk, but I suspect the pugio was worn both ways with perhaps one being more common than the other.

I only suspect what I see. Keeps me on the True Path. If I see another method (from the period in question!!), I'll be happy to suspect that, too!

People are people after all...if our gear has changed a lot over the centuries then our basic natures haven't so much.

Go and talk to a few modern people from other cultures, and you will be amazed at how different their "basic natures" are! The more I learn about Romans, the less likely I am to believe that they thought anything like the way we do. For one thing, they were slaves to fashion, and a decorative dagger on a decorative belt is quite likely going to be dictated mostly by fashion.

Matthew Amt wrote:
The depictions of the gladius worn at an angle may be showing the gladius hispaniensis, such as the Ahenobarbus relief. Those generally had only 2 rings at the back of the scabbard at first, like the Delos sword, so they would indeed hang at an angle.

Nope, some are on trajans column as well. Wink

DOH! Okay, got me on that one! Now I have to go and do some RESEARCH, grumble grumble...

Valete,

Matthew

[PhilusEstilius]

I do like that picture you have shown Cesar very clever one that, and it looks like no strap to the rear top ring interesting.

[Tarbicus]

Matt, the sculpture show plenty of canted weapons, so I doubt it's as clear cut as my comillitone makes it seem.

I've not got access to HRR right now. Can you tell me the names of the deceased, Byron? Are they in the RAT Imagebase ?

I know of stelae where the hand is clearly resting on and pulling the pugio or gladius forward, because that's quite natural. But where the weapons are left hanging freely, I only see them hanging vertically.

As I say, I don't have access to HRR right now, but would love to know more.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Trajans column Jim. (That is also wher you will see many gladii at different levels.) amoungst many, including republican images such as the afore mentioned Ahenobarbus sarcophegus.
If you wear a gladius in the position shown on many stelle, ie vertical infront of the thigh, it rides on the leg, gets in the way. I doubt a Roman would put up with it for more than a pace or 2.

[Tarbicus]

Trajans column Jim. (That is also wher you will see many gladii at different levels.)

What!? That's clutching at straws now, mate! I don't think Crispvs has anything to worry about, or are you having a TC seg made based on the mind's eye of urban sculptors who probably never saw real live legionaries in their lives, much less ones kitted out for battle in Dacia?

What do the Adamklissi metopes show?

amoungst many, including republican images such as the afore mentioned Ahenobarbus sarcophegus.
If you wear a gladius in the position shown on many stelle, ie vertical infront of the thigh, it rides on the leg, gets in the way. I doubt a Roman would put up with it for more than a pace or 2.

Why is your gladius smack bang in front of the thigh? It should be at the side and forward a bit.

Go to the RAT Imagebase and take a good look through the full size grave stelae, especially the quality ones from the 1st C. The only time the gladius is leaning forwards is when the soldier is physically holding it forwards, and that especially includes Minucius Lorarius. Some gladii may be slightly forward, but even that's mostly when the arm seems to be resting on it. As for pugios, they're pointed straight up at the heavens except for Minucius Lorarius again, but that a completely horizontal one across his midriff anyway.

[John Conyard]

Interesting discussion. If we broadened it to the 3rd and 4th century the discussion could last for months.

A nice print in Robinson of Adamklissi XVIII shows a legionary with scabbard leaning foward, even though no sword is in it. Of course other metopes show swords worn vertically.

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... tope18.htm

[PhilusEstilius]

I do think that what many people do is to look at things and not realise, that in many situations they are looking at artists impressions of things. It's like many of the grave stelae that depict the soldier in his pose position hand on pommel scabbard pointing any which way the artist wants it to. Where Byron mentions about the sword being in the way I've come across many re-enactors who have said the same, however some are these silly people who put their waistbelt thro' a devided baldric strap.

[Magnus]

I'm one of those silly people...consider this a moderator's warning:

Keep the name calling and insults to the school yard.

Just because you don't agree with something does NOT make it "silly". Especially something so trivial...if this gets you so excited perhaps you need to re-examine the seriousness at which you take your hobbies.

[PhilusEstilius]

I suppose you are correct on that point and yes I do take my interest in Roman history very serious maybe too much some times.

[jkaler48]

With dozens of Legions spread out all over the Empire over hundreds of years under varying conditions of service with thousands of different leaders
all of the different methods of wearing a Pugio or Gladius mentioned may
have been "correct" at some place and time as well as some we have not thought of or considered. Anyone or group who goes with something with period materials and tech and is able to get the Gladius or Pugio drawn isn't
committing any mortal sin. All that should be said is "I like this other method better and my reason/evidence is ......"

[A_Volpe]

Romans were not 'standardized' as we think of it today, they did not have a 'uniform' or an arrangement of wearing gear that is as regulated and strict as we think of it today

if having the belt over or under the baldric 'works' for someone, then I have no problem with it. All bodies are different and where the sword ends up hanging on one person to another will be different.

If someone is having a lot of trouble with the (sword) banging around or being in the way, certainly one can suggest they try doing it this way or that way and see if it works better for them.

we find evidence of one or two legionaries in sculpture that appears to have the sword 'high' and the belt not over the baldric...Does that mean that is what every single Roman soldier did? Nope!

I'm not convinced we have a 100% exact proof without a doubt answer as to how the belt(s) and baldric was worn. It changed over the course of 200 someodd years, and it likely changed slightly per individual soldier.

When you hand out rifles to soldiers today, is every single soldier going to be able to shoot comfortably and accurately with the sights at factory setup? Or is the soldier going to make little adjustments to make it work for them?

When you get into someone else's car, or a rental, or a new car - don't you have to adjust the mirrors, seat and steering wheel to make it comfortable for you to drive properly?

I don't see how that's so far different from both actual Romans how they wore their armaments and reenactors today.

Another approach is to say "Hey guys! I think I see another way of wearing the gladius, I tried it out and it totally changes the feel and way of drawing the sword! Try it sometime and lemme know what you think!"
This tends to work better than saying someone's approach is "silly" or "wrong".

attitudes are difficult to 'read' online, and things can get way blown out of proportion way too quickly.