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Christian. That information sounds very interesting indeed I would look forward to any other developments from that. Here are some other smaller loop fasteners that I have.
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... btf072.jpg
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... btf073.jpg
these of course are similar to the small ones shown by Adrian Wink
Brian Stobbs
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Christian. There may be a point here indeed when I first saw what Adrian had put up he mentioned 2 button loop and 2 toggle fasteners, this tended to have me thinking a bit for 4 fasteners I don't know
Brian Stobbs
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Quote:There is a small bronze toggle from Chester (Diva) which was associated with clothing.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... button.jpg
Unless the toggle was found attached to clothing, it can only be 'guessed' at being associated with clothing, especially before Miks and Ubl published.
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It could be a pull tab on a Roma lifejacket too! :o
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Jim I'm afraid I have to disagree with that statement you have made that there had to be some sort of clothing before the toggle could be considered as such. When Deschler - Erb and Miks have not shown leather of a belt to establish a sword suspension system, for that is also only speculation is it not.
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What´s the toggle´s archaeological context? Is it dated / stratigraphy and all?
Christian K.
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Quote:Jim I'm afraid I have to disagree with that statement you have made that there had to be some sort of clothing before the toggle could be considered as such. When Deschler - Erb and Miks have not shown leather of a belt to establish a sword suspension system, for that is also only speculation is it not.
Exactly, Brian - my point also, but in reverse. I'm still very unclear as to how you can state indefatigably that they couldn't be used for scabbard suspension, when there is no evidence presented that they were only used to fasten clothing. However, the example Miks shows is clearly in context of being associated with a sword.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Jim . All that has been mentioned up to now is that a suggestion has come from Deschler - Erb about a belt being wrapped around a sword, there is no leather to prove this statement and there was only one such stud found. Therefore how can there be any context at all of it being in association with a sword, when infact there could be more reason to suggest that a sword may well have been layed upon a neatly folded cloak hence one stud.
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Quote:All that has been mentioned up to now is that a suggestion has come from Deschler - Erb about a belt being wrapped around a sword, there is no leather to prove this statement and there was only one such stud found.
That´s not correct. There´s also the Idrija pri Baci set together with prof. Ubl´s statement.
Christian K.
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Christian. That is correct as far as the Idrija pri Baci SET is concerned, and also as you have pointed out evidence that Prof'. Ubl put forward. That I do not dispute however from the fact that only one such stud was found in the Vindonissa case, it is not such an outrageous statement to suggest it may only have come from clothing.
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I think we should take another look at the Miks pictures:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 858#224858
Miks2_309C.jpg shows two studs on the belt, not attached to belt plates, and they have a very characteristic gap between them as if something fitted inbetween them. They're also next to the buckle plate.
Miks245.jpg shows the single stud/fastener ( F). Interestingly, it seems to be attached to something which looks like a belt end. Look closely, to the right. Do any German speakers have the book and can tell us exactly what he says about this in the text? For all we know there may have been two, but only one is illustrated.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:That I do not dispute however from the fact that only one such stud was found in the Vindonissa case, it is not such an outrageous statement to suggest it may only have come from clothing.
No, it is not. It´s a methodological problem, though. If I start to look for evidence for an idea that I already have, I may find all kinds of things that fit my hypothesis. However, in such cases it is better to look at what the evidence supplies on information, and then deduce logical hypotheses from that. In this case the archaeological context suggests that these objects have something to do with swords and military use, other sources hint into the same direction. On the other hand, there is no sound reason to connect these objects with clothing. Or, at least, so far noone was able to really bring up unamabigious evidence to strengthen the hypothesis that these objects are cloak-fasteners.
Christian K.
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Christian. Where you say there is no sound reason to connect these objects with clothing, do I take that as refering to the objects found in these burials or to button loop fasteners in general.
Brian Stobbs
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Roman button-loop fasteners. I don´t say they can´t be connected to clothing. I just wonder where there is the necessary archaeological "hint"? 
Christian K.
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I do think that has been demonstrated in Armamentaria with the Camomile Sreet soldier.
Brian Stobbs
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