What is Reenactment grade gear? & Pugio/Gladius wearing

[jkaler48]

Discussion Below now includes which ways can the Pugio and or Gladius
be worn attached etc.


In my opinion there are several criteria which constitute minimum reenactment quality:

1. Does not fall apart under reasonable use.

2. Is close to appearance or has same styling and features of
known original items.

3. Is made from period materials or does not have obviously modern materials visible. (Examples stainless steel, aluminum, plastic)

4. Exception: Tents painted to simulate leather and some other very expensive things to replicate with original materials are OK.


It is too bad that there isn't a body that could issue a "Reenactment grade
seal of approval" The closest I suppose is the XXth Legion handbook
although some dealers advertise "First Name, Last Name Approved" on some products (including some that fail #1 above)

Comments?

[Tarbicus]

Is this thread to discuss what constitutes re-enactment quality (let's face it, it varies group to group, which is their right), or to have a pop at a certain manufacturer because your pugio rings came apart?

I think it would be a bad thing for a 're-enactment seal of approval'. Pretty impossible to make it work, also. What might seem hunky dory to you would be old hat and behind the times to others. Then when a group doesn't care for the 'rules and regs' and won't follow them, what do you do about it? Sue them? Ban them from re-enacting? Who decides what constitutes quality - believe me, it's a touchy subject.

I suggest you also read back through some recent threads. The Handbook you quote needs some revision, as do a couple of others probably.

[jkaler48]

Tarbicus: "Is this thread to discuss what constitutes re-enactment quality (let's face it, it varies group to group, which is their right), or to have a pop at a certain manufacturer because your pugio rings came apart?"

Absolutely not taking a pop at any company in particular; I have had
problems with lower cost gear from several sources that looks good
until you actually use it awhile.

Tarbicus: I think it would be a bad thing for a 're-enactment seal of approval'. Pretty impossible to make it work, also. What might seem hunky dory to you would be old hat and behind the times to others. Then when a group doesn't care for the 'rules and regs' and won't follow them, what do you do about it? Sue them? Ban them from re-enacting? Who decides what constitutes quality - believe me, it's a touchy subject.

You are correct about it being a difficult area. What was great gear a few
years back is not so good now. It is probably best describing as due
to "evolving standards". I would never suggest that any kind of
enforceable standards were possible or even needed. I was thinking more about guidance for new purchases or replacing older gear.

Tarbicus: I suggest you also read back through some recent threads. The Handbook you quote needs some revision, as do a couple of others probably."
I have saved a lot and time and money by way of the XX Legion handbook. A lot of the other units handbooks copy from it and /or link to it.
My question is could/should RAT and/or its members help with a easy to reference set of equipment standards or should the reenactment community just be left with the current options of the few (in need of update) online guides and doing thread searches one item at a time on RAT.

[Magnus]

The system as it is John isn't broken...as Jim mentioned the idea of a governing body saying what is ok and what isn't is fraught with controversy (remember, no-one could agree on a "national legion" just for the US, forget world-wide regulations).

The current online guides (Legio XX's handbook springs to mind) really aren't all that outdated. Combine that with this forum's search engine and there aren't many gaps that need covering.

As for your points, I'd say they're all pretty good except for the one about modern materials, since most helmets, weapons and such are made with modern steels.

[jvrjenivs]

I totally agree with above mentioned statement it's absolutely impossible to make criteria for these, as most of these things also have influences from your financial situation etc. (#4).

Let me explain. Most people know I'm a student, but that my parents have some money and I did good work as a webdesigner and got a lot of money over the last years, which could be spent purely on my hobby as roman re-enactor. I've some custum stuff and made some myself and therefore got a high standart (no machine sewn stuff, no canvas, etc). Okay I don't have a leather tent either (being still a student, I can't afford it, yet), but when the time is come I'm sure I'm going to sew my own from goat leather. (or buy me one if there's a good source)

I also would like to totally change my helmets for hand-raised versions. That's the criteria I want to go to (in the next few years).

So, for me (and some others in Europe I know of), your #4 is totally bull-shit. But as being a student I see the point, don't get me wrong. I use Deepeeka gallic F as one of my favorite helmets, but would replace it if I had the money for a König version.

On #1 I would add that I don't think that's a point we need to make on re-enactment gear, but that's a general point. Stuff must be okay when used as it was made for. You don't gonna buy a car which isn't supposed to drive, do you?

#3 I found interesting and I've my thoughts on this (and playing with them for some time) but before going off-topic I don't know if this is the place to post them. I would like to go a step further than only using 'materials' the Romans knew off, and also say 'tools' the Romans knew off. (I mean, using reproductions of tools found would be awesome (and again) I would go that route if I could) but at least using tools the Romans knew off, would add value to an item for me. (call me crazy, you may, I'm).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Point number three, while the one we all desire, is probably the one that makes it the most least like ly to be accepted, for the very reasons you allude to Jujenis. That of cost.

I would like all my kit to be exactly what a Roman would have used, made to the same standards, and made using the same techniques, tools and materials. I have found to my great dissappointment that that will probably not be a goal I will reach, even if I only spend my money on
Roman kit :wink:
We can't even get popular agreement on some of the best repros available....

[PhilusEstilius]

I have to ask where people mention the xxth hand book, just which xxth are they refering to. For in my opinion there is no one who can lay down any hard and fast rules in the re-enactment game. There is one group a xxth who put forward the idea many years ago of the Baldric Strap, that has been blindly followed by most groups and is a load of nonsence. Where the devil did anyone ever get the idea that a waistbelt goes thro' a baldric strap, with the sword fixed rigid low down on the hip like a Texas gunslinger. I think it stems from the idea that no one is truely aware why a scabbard has four rings on it, and that was the easy way to figure it out without even thinking.

[M. Demetrius]

Additionally, suppose Gladius Perfectus got the seal of approval. A new manager takes over that manufacturer, and decides he can save some production costs if he changes this feature...it's just a small change, no one will mind.

Material costs go up, as copper prices continue to rise, so rises the brass cost. He goes to a lighter gauge, and realizes that manufacturing is that much easier with the thinner metal. He doesn't publicize the change, and some of the new, thinner ones get mixed into the next shipment, thereby introducing a lower quality product without the customers being the wiser.

After a few cost cuts in the production end, how would the reenactor community react? How would the situation be improved, should the "seal" be taken away. Who would pay for the legal fees if the vendor sued the seal-issuing body?

It would never work in the modern world. It's a good idea, though, and might have some future if the whole world were peopled with those who always did what was right, and never did anything wrong. Of course, we wouldn't need any approval seals if that utopia ever arrived. What we do here, discussing products, etc., and relating personal experiences is probably the best realistic possibility.

[Hibernicus]

Who determines "reenactment quality"?

It is possible to create an international standards board.... with certificates of authenticity... "seals of approval" ..... Genuine replica... "This Segmentata Approved by Authenticus"....

....but short of that:

Each individual has to educate himself and make up his own mind. Read, ask questions, compare, email folks, call them on the phone...

...never take a vendor's word for it... profit is a powerful motivator and its co-worker is compromise...

But, as things are now, if he's going to be a Roman soldier independently then the standard is his. If he joins a club then it's theirs.

Q: Are their GENERALITIES?
.... a birch plywood scutum is more authentic than a luan plywood scutum, which is better than a fiberglass scutum...

.... CR mild steel is better than stainless steel which is better than aluminum...

... ash is better than polar which is better than teak...

.... or in the case of gladius scabbard cores: pine is better than balsa which is better than paperboard...

.... vegetable tanned leather is better than chemical tanned leather which is better than naugahyde...

.. cast brass is better than cast aluminum which is better than cast resin..

Something like that might be possible to find concensus on.

I think we can all agree on things like: A pugio blade made from hand smelted and forged iron using replica tools and techniques by a blacksmith with 30 years of experience wearing a hand spun hand woven tunica is of a higher standard than one made from 19th C Railroad spikes by a guy in bluejeans using a three burner gas forge which is better than one ground from HR steel barstock by a guy wearing cutoffs and a Hawaiian shirt... ... :wink:

Then there's the question of form and function. It looks correct (scutums with polycarbonate plastic cores) but it does it function like a scutum?

Ultimately it gets down to someone assessing what's available, knowing that some folks disagree on "standards" and why they disagree, and then making up his own mind about what he wants.

[Matthew Amt]

But, as things are now, if he's going to be a Roman soldier independently then the standard is his. If he joins a club then it's theirs.

Bingo.

I think we can all agree on things like: A pugio blade made from hand smelted and forged iron using replica tools and techniques by a blacksmith with 30 years of experience wearing a hand spun hand woven tunica is of a higher standard than one made from 19th C Railroad spikes by a guy in bluejeans using a three burner gas forge which is better than one ground from HR steel barstock by a guy wearing cutoffs and a Hawaiian shirt... ... :wink:

Agreed---IF the completed items are otherwise of comparable accuracy. I have seen custom-made helmets and weapons that were much less accurate than Indian-made pieces. And not even the *best* Indian-made pieces...

Brian, the Legio XX site folks are referring to is mine, based in the Washington DC area:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/

Yup, it does need some updates! That all depends on a confluence of time, opportunity, motivation, and decent information. Not a real common occurrance these days, but it could happen! (If it's just adding links, that's much easier. IF someone sends me good links!)

Gotta say that baldric system looks odd. Don't the gravestones actually show it attached just to the top ring at the front, and forked to reach both rings at back? Been way too long since I researched all this stuff, so sometimes I don't remember what I've actually seen, or whether I'm just taking some modern author's word for it...

Valete,

Matthew

[Arminius Primus]

Ave,

This subject has generated a lot of discussion ! I think everyone agrees that we all strive for accuracy, but that like in most things some compromise is required. Even if we could all afford the hand raised helmets and custom made Segmentata. I don't think that those craftsmen could satisfy the demand.

Here in the Balkans, I am trying to resurrect the V Macedonica and at the same time preserve some of the local crafts that are starting to disappear. I had the local blacksmith working on a pugio, lots of pictures and a plain commercial model as a pattern. End result, a weapon that would be absolutely deadly in a close in knife fight, but it differed a bit from the pictures and pattern. Functional , but ugly! So handmade but not necessarily reenactment quality. So some of our terms are relative as well.

I think that the bottom line is to get as close as possible to existing patterns at reasonable cost. ...and if there has to be a compromise, to be up front about it with the public and ourselves.

Regards from the Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al

[Gaius_Calvus]

Yeah - notice that all THREE of us in the pics have our gladius hilts up around our armpits.

What's "Texas gunslinger" about that?

Edge

[Tarbicus]

Actually I just looked at the pics of me on my website...half the sword IS way too low, half it's up where it should be. Something to be mindful of that's for sure...I think it depends on where my balteus gets attached to my seggie...

http://www.romanarmy.com/legioiiiiff/Ma ... fyFace.jpg
Matt, if the top rings were just above your belt the pommel would be at the perfect height, IMHO. I'm fairly sure that's what Brian means as well. You need to see to that lockjaw, too.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Oh, yeah -- and for John Kaler. (Sorry, I lost track of the original topic of the thread).

When it comes to determining what constitutes re-enactor-grade quality kit, if I can't tell myself I certainly know where to go to ask.

Right here.

So, no, I think that having some sort of "RAT seal of approval" is absolutely unnecessary. As Hibernicus says, if you belong to a group you follow the leader's standards. If you're on your own, if your equipment is not up to speed then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Edge

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

http://www.romanarmy.com/legioiiiiff/Ma ... fyFace.jpg

Thats Matt's 'Get off your horse and drink your milk' face Jim!