First Crusade - It works!

[Timotheus]

Ok, lot of handwaving here to make this magically happen but just consider it.

Imagine that the First Crusade is launched but instead of running down to conquer what they want and do what they want the crusade actually approaches the Byzantine Empire and fights for her the way the Emperor had wanted them to.

How would this have turned out? Remove the politics, maneuvering, backstabbing and instead the crusaders fight for Byzantium.

Would they be able to reclaim all of Anatolia? Possibly reclaim Armenia and gain the people and military of that region, and then push southward reclaiming what was once Roman but under Eastern Roman control instead of as several petty squabbling Kingdoms.

Was there enough military power in Europe to defeat the Caliphate?

[M. Demetrius]

You can't remove the politics and backstabbing from ancient war, since war is generally a political statement of one sort or another...and assassination was a common way to short circuit diplomacy.

[Timotheus]

The question is more along the lines of does there exist enough military power in Western Europe to save the Byzantine Empire from the Caliphate and reclaim its lost territory.

[Carlton Bach]

The question is more along the lines of does there exist enough military power in Western Europe to save the Byzantine Empire from the Caliphate and reclaim its lost territory.

Pretty much yes. 11th century Europe is switching over to a system of promigeniture inheritance that is a machine for producing surplus manpower, and the dearth of other occupations for upper-class males exacerbates the problem. A well-born Arab could become a scholar or teacher, jurisconsult, a writer, an engineer, a courtier, a civil servant or a soldier if he didn't have an estate to inherit. A Norman gentlemamn would have to choose holy orders to follow most of these careers and would not be allowed or able to pursue others, so it's soldier. Add the greater mobilisation potential of Europe's less professional armies and the shrinking quality gap in leadership and equipment and you have an opening.

The big problems IOM are political and geographic. Political - can Byzantium hope to control that military manpower? The only recruiting tool capable of tapping the reservoir to the required extent is religion, and that means going through the papacy. The Byzantines will invariably get armies of devout Latin Catholics with all the problems that entails. They will also need to pay them reliably and well enough to make freelancing a comparably uninviting prospect, which is very difficult given the techniques for small-scale political dominance the western Europeans had developed. And they need worry comparatively little about the Caliphate, but the Fatimids and Turks are a different story.

[Timotheus]

Well on at least one ocassion if not two didnt the Byzantine Church offer to convert and become subserviant to the Papacy if Rome would send the forces to save her?

the money problem could be solved by not hitting the Holy Land first but instead claim all of Anatolia, make sure every aspect of the Black Sea in controlled and reclaim Armenia.

Once you get the income from controlling all the trade then you send forces down the coast to claim Syria and everything south as far as you can reach.

[Carlton Bach]

Well on at least one ocassion if not two didnt the Byzantine Church offer to convert and become subserviant to the Papacy if Rome would send the forces to save her?

Yes, but that was significantly late. The Comnene dynasty was not in anywhere near that bad a shape. And the Byzantine church (with some historical justification) regarded the popes as schismatics. I can't see an easy solution here short of threatening the Western armies with large sums of money.

the money problem could be solved by not hitting the Holy Land first but instead claim all of Anatolia, make sure every aspect of the Black Sea in controlled and reclaim Armenia.

Once you get the income from controlling all the trade then you send forces down the coast to claim Syria and everything south as far as you can reach.

In theory that might be feasible, but I doubt you're going to be able to reliably generate that much revenue from control of Anatolia. Especially with the Turks next door. And you still have to deal with keeping your auxiliaries under control and paying them generously.

Militarily feasible, IMO, but a political nightmare beyond all mortal ken.

[Timotheus]

Well on at least one ocassion if not two didnt the Byzantine Church offer to convert and become subserviant to the Papacy if Rome would send the forces to save her?

Yes, but that was significantly late. The Comnene dynasty was not in anywhere near that bad a shape. And the Byzantine church (with some historical justification) regarded the popes as schismatics. I can't see an easy solution here short of threatening the Western armies with large sums of money.

the money problem could be solved by not hitting the Holy Land first but instead claim all of Anatolia, make sure every aspect of the Black Sea in controlled and reclaim Armenia.

Once you get the income from controlling all the trade then you send forces down the coast to claim Syria and everything south as far as you can reach.

In theory that might be feasible, but I doubt you're going to be able to reliably generate that much revenue from control of Anatolia. Especially with the Turks next door. And you still have to deal with keeping your auxiliaries under control and paying them generously.

Militarily feasible, IMO, but a political nightmare beyond all mortal ken.

Yeah, the odds of people working together as much as they needed to is very small.

As for the bribing. Might as well bribe the western armies with every penny you got. As it turned out eventually the crusaders conquer the Byzantines and steal all their wealth anyway.

[hoplite14gr]

The Byzantines under godd leadership were able to control wesrtn units in their armies and use them.
The Crusaders appear at a time were the worst elents of the Byzantine society were in control and if the were backstabbing their own then they would have on qualms backstabbing the Crusaders.

Given the historical examples of Basilios Boioannes and Gergios Maniakes who controlled Western military formations and assuming that both Byzantine & Western leaders had forced the clergymen to shut up (Schism you know) all options are possible.

If you want to recreate an alternative IF: invent a bride for Basil II the Bulgarianslayer. Invent an earl of the same caliber as his terrible daddy and you have maintained the legislation that controlled Dynatoi and secured the Byzantine military back bone.

Have leader as such at the time of the Crusades and yes the world could be VERY differnt! But that is a big IF

Remember a good leader such as Herakleios has once saved the empire from extinction!. That mith 11th century there was no such leader.

Kind regards

[Timotheus]

Pretty much yes. 11th century Europe is switching over to a system of promigeniture inheritance that is a machine for producing surplus manpower, and the dearth of other occupations for upper-class males exacerbates the problem. A well-born Arab could become a scholar or teacher, jurisconsult, a writer, an engineer, a courtier, a civil servant or a soldier if he didn't have an estate to inherit. A Norman gentlemamn would have to choose holy orders to follow most of these careers and would not be allowed or able to pursue others, so it's soldier. Add the greater mobilisation potential of Europe's less professional armies and the shrinking quality gap in leadership and equipment and you have an opening.

So in Europe the upper class men could chose between the two F's. Fighting and well you know the other one. Or they could join the church.

[Steakslim]

One way to control the crusaders would be to convert to catholisism and then get their man in the popes miter. Oh look Basilios we just re-took the west and this time we can hold it as long as the pope is under our thumb

[Carlton Bach]

So in Europe the upper class men could chose between the two F's. Fighting and well you know the other one. Or they could join the church.

Actually, the other F played a pretty significant role as an incentive in this system. After 1000, the church eroded opportunities for sexual contact outside monogamous marriages that had existed earlier in the shape of legally recognised concubinage, divorce and remarriage, and socially acepted forms of illegitimacy (William the Conqueror is a late exponent of the old ways). Increasingly, the only avenue to sexual access to women was marriage. but marriage had economic success as a prerequisite, and since the only career acceptable for a gentleman (you have to be careful talkiong about nobility at this point), that meant military success. You had to gain control of land and revenue before you could marry and start making more gentlemen. Only the oldest son could secure this by inheritance. All his younger brothers had to get it through tourney fighting, military service, or violent crime (with the dividing line between the latter two being blurry).

Tell these guys they can get land and money and at the same time save their souls and they'll take the deal in large numbers.

[Carlton Bach]

The Byzantines under godd leadership were able to control wesrtn units in their armies and use them.
The Crusaders appear at a time were the worst elents of the Byzantine society were in control and if the were backstabbing their own then they would have on qualms backstabbing the Crusaders.

Given the historical examples of Basilios Boioannes and Gergios Maniakes who controlled Western military formations and assuming that both Byzantine & Western leaders had forced the clergymen to shut up (Schism you know) all options are possible.

If you want to recreate an alternative IF: invent a bride for Basil II the Bulgarianslayer. Invent an earl of the same caliber as his terrible daddy and you have maintained the legislation that controlled Dynatoi and secured the Byzantine military back bone.

Have leader as such at the time of the Crusades and yes the world could be VERY differnt! But that is a big IF

Remember a good leader such as Herakleios has once saved the empire from extinction!. That mith 11th century there was no such leader.

Kind regards

I'm not sure whether the Byzantines, if ably led, would have needed the Crusaders. But controlling them might well prove too much even for a military genius simply because there are so *many* of them. Mercenary units are one thing, but armies numbering in their many tens of thousands are quite another.

[Timotheus]

I'm not sure whether the Byzantines, if ably led, would have needed the Crusaders. But controlling them might well prove too much even for a military genius simply because there are so *many* of them. Mercenary units are one thing, but armies numbering in their many tens of thousands are quite another.

What you really need are Byzantines who are more interested in fighting foreign foes than in fighting each other. The Byzantines remind me of the late period Seleucids. Even when their once vast empire had been reduced by the Parthians to just Syria the Seleucid royals were still more interested in fighting each other for the throne. Even when the throne was rapidly starting to mean nothing.

[hoplite14gr]

The Roman empire had a tradition of military colonies an Foideratoi.
Assuming you solve the religious thingie then settling as military colonist in the Fabulous East would be more to the tases of the Crusaders that dieng to wrest it from the "Romans" (Byzantines). After all land in exchange of service was was usual at the time.
BUT you need good leadership to make it work. Much to the detriment of my compatriots I would understand the the Norman knight who would sprang into attention infrond of Maniakes but wanting to clubber Alexios Angelos!
You can´t respect a "Bozo in purple clothes"!

Kind regards

[Steakslim]

One way to control the crusaders would be to convert to catholisism and then get their man in the popes miter. Oh look Basilios we just re-took the west and this time we can hold it as long as the pope is under our thumb

Well would that work or no?