Squamata question

[Anonymous]

Is is possible to penetrate a lorica squamata (scale armor) with a stout upward thrust? Perhaps this is why the segmentata is overlapped in the other direction? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Squamata can shed scales - especially if struck with the type of attack you mentioned. The Romans solved this problem not by reversing the overlap but by locking the scales to each other with more wire/staples. The construction is generally known as "locking scale". <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!<br>
<br>
Well, no armor is perfect, so yeah, a particularly good thrust MIGHT get through, upwards or downwards. It's all the other weaker thrusts and chops that don't get through. It's generally wiser to hit a guy where he has no armor.<br>
<br>
If you look at the way a scale shirt sits on a person, and the size of the scales, and the way it gives under pressure, I think you'd have to be REALLY close to get the blade vertical enough to go cleanly between the scales.<br>
<br>
Not sure I'm understanding you about the segmentata--the segmented plate lorica does indeed overlap downwards like scale armor. The segmented armguard or manica overlaps upwards, though. We're still arguing about why!<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX <p></p><i></i>

[Gregg]

You're right Matt, that overlap on the manica is strange. The older excavated examples overlap upwards, but the artistic depictions on the Adamklissi monument show them overlapping downwards.<br>
<br>
There's a complete leg manica from Ai Khanoum dated about 150 BC, part of a cataphract armor, and it also has the plates overlapping upwards. Then there's the 1st century AD clay sculpture of a cataphract's armor from Khalchayan which clearly shows an arm manica with plates overlapping downwards.<br>
<br>
I've always wondered if the direction of the overlap might have something to do with the type of weapons the particular soldier would be expected to encounter. For instance, I agree with Matt that a foot soldier clad in scale probably wouldn't be especially vulnerable to any weapons he might typically expect to come up against on the battlefield, but I'm not sure if the same would have been true of a horseman wearing scale. With less shield cover than a foot soldier, he'd be more reliant on his armor, and his elevated position on the back of the horse might make him more vulnerable to an upward thrust from a spear wielded by an enemy on foot. I figure maybe the Romans developed locking scale, which clearly evolved from standard scale, as a horseman's armor. An upward thrust from a spear would skip off a locking scale cuirass, where a spear-tip might be able to slip under a row of standard scales.<br>
<br>
That might be the reason manica plates overlapped the way they did. On a cataphract it makes sense, since the direction of overlap wouldn't effect the armor's ability to withstand arrows or slashing blows, but an upward overlap would prevent a thrusting weapon from slipping between the plates.<br>
<br>
It makes less sense when applied to a foot soldier, however. Any chance the manica fragments found at Carnuntum and Newstead were for a cataphract?<br>
<br>
No? Oh well...<br>
<br>
Gregg<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Gashford]

manica, what a pain they often present.<br>
<br>
In my meagre experience of making them (about four/five at present) I have found that upward manica made of metal do not have the flexibility of their downward counterparts but offer a stiffer more resolute piece of armour.<br>
<br>
However, you can (not always) sacrifice some of the movement of them.<br>
<br>
There are some manica shown on gladiatorial reliefs that have the manica clearly going upward ... perhaps they just did either depending upon armourer skill, local custom and personal preference?<br>
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All the best <p>Graham Ashford<br>
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