Subarmalis question

[LegioIIavg]

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question as i am new to roman miltary matters. I know that medieval period combatants wore a padded gambeson under mail armour to protect the body from the crushing blunt force trauma that mail obviously couldn't stop by itself. The pictures and footage i have seen of these gambesons shows them to be substatially padded and thick.

As the romans made extensive use of mail armour as well and would have faced the same type of trauma as later periods i was wondering if they used something similar. I have seen references to a subarmalis but it seems to be mostly for the purpose of stopping chaffing and for general comfort rather than protection. Did the romans have protective padding under their armour ?. Thanks

[Magnus]

It's been discussed before I believe.

There isn't much in the way of evidence for the subarmalis. A certain degree of padding is required, but not piles, that's what your shield is for. :wink:

In all seriousness, who knows...

[hansvl]

Hi,

You will find an in depth discussion on this topic at RAT:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... subarmalis


Greets,

Hans

[LegioIIavg]

Thanks for the link hansvl.

[PhilusEstilius]

It is only an opinion but I do not think that the Roman soldier of earlier centuries wore all of the padding that we see with re-enactors today. Indeed I think that anyone would be hard pushed to find evidence for this at all in the earlier periods. It is my personal opinion that in 1st 2nd and even 3rd centuries, the under armour garment would only have been of thin leather and even then it would only have been of short waist length.

[Peroni]

It is my personal opinion that in 1st 2nd and even 3rd centuries, the under armour garment would only have been of thin leather and even then it would only have been of short waist length.

One ancient source (IIRC Vegetius?) mentions padding of a finger thick. Therefore it would suggest either felted wool or padded/quilted linen as opposed to leather.

[Robert Vermaat]

the under armour garment would only have been of thin leather and even then it would only have been of short waist length.

Why do you think that? I think it's logical to waer padded garments under your armour. Why do you think that thin leather would suffice (and while you're at it, why wear leather at all)?

[Marcus Mummius]

I do not think that the Roman soldier of earlier centuries wore all of the padding that we see with re-enactors today

Original helmets that were found with the padding still in place show that these pieces of equipment where heavily padded, often much more than the helmets worn by reenactors today.

Most reenactors I've seen wear almost no padding or none at all under a hamata. Very strange as a hamata really isn't a very good armour without padding under it. I'm not saying this extra padding would have come in the form of a subarmalis, most early imperial tunics were very large and supplied considerable bulk under the armour too, but most reenactors still use unauthentic narrow T-shirt like tunics that give no padding at all.

Vale,

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Original helmets that were found with the padding still in place show that these pieces of equipment where heavily padded, often much more than the helmets worn by reenactors today.

Jeff,

Very interesting! Could you please point to the evidence, especially to the frequent cases of heavily padded helmets?

Thanks,

[arklore70]

Isn't what the subarmalis is constructed of all basically speculation and perhaps based off some pictorial evidence in the case of the ptreuges?

I am wondering if a subarmalis would not have varied say from a hamata to a segmentata.

While I am sure that whatever it was that they wore or did was relatively effective, I can only guess as to what it might have been made of, and nothing says that it might not have varied based upon personal preference, environment, availability of materiel, etc...

Tons of speculation, a few clues, which means that at least to me, we really don't know.

[Peroni]

Could you please point to the evidence, especially to the frequent cases of heavily padded helmets?

The Gallic F from Vindonissa still in it's leather bag and with a lining of felted wool and animal fur/skin very well preserved!

[Matthew Amt]

The Gallic F from Vindonissa still in it's leather bag and with a lining of felted wool and animal fur/skin very well preserved!

Is this published anywhere? I've been hearing about it for years but have somehow missed any illustrations or details.

While I'm hardly the first to go with "sensible" or "logical" arguments for anything, I strongly agree that padding was probably common under any armor. For the lorica segmentata, padding makes the collar plates sit higher on the neck and hang straighter, matching the visual and archeological evidence better.

My guess is that the subarmalis or any other padding was made from old tunics! Soldiers are going through 6 or 8 or more a year, so there's a constant supply of fabric for padding, socks, cleaning rags, etc.

Valete,

Matthew

[Graham Sumner]

While I'm hardly the first to go with "sensible" or "logical" arguments for anything, I strongly agree that padding was probably common under any armor. For the lorica segmentata, padding makes the collar plates sit higher on the neck and hang straighter, matching the visual and archeological evidence better.

My guess is that the subarmalis or any other padding was made from old tunics! Soldiers are going through 6 or 8 or more a year, so there's a constant supply of fabric for padding, socks, cleaning rags, etc.

Probably both 'sensible' and 'logical' Matthew!

It is quite possible that designs did vary as already suggested. I have come across at least seven or eight different versions that are possible contenders, which will be published shortly but basically not far off the 'cricket pad' look seen elsewhere.

Graham.

P.S Robert during research for something else I came across some 17th century leather cannons! I even think they originated in your part of the world! Amazing stuff leather, has all sorts of uses including protective clothing or dare I say it, armour!

[jho]

Is this published anywhere? I've been hearing about it for years but have somehow missed any illustrations or details.

Published in Deschler-Erb, R. Fellmann, Brogli/Th. Kahlau, Ein "Fellhelm" aus Vindonissa. Jahresbericht der Gesellschaft Pro Vindonissa 2004, 2005, 1-13. (in German I am afraid).

The helmet was covered on the outside with leather which is presumed to have been either a leather bag or an adornment similar to the textile covers of helmets from Xanten, Nijmegen (Cavalry helmets) and potentially Tenedo/Zurzach (Imperial Gallic helmet) and on the inside with felt which is presumed to have either been a lining or a separate cap.

[M. Demetrius]

There is also talk about the subarmalis here: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... highlight=

A good shoulder pad for inside any kind of subarmalis can be made from hair-on sheepskin, especially sheared to around 2-3cm. A sewn in pocket across the shoulder would be handy. Makes a decent helmet pad, too, until it starts felting up and getting thinner.