Roman Cavalry Saddles: Help Needed

[Vitruvius]

Ave to all,

With in the next year, I hope to finally achieve a long time dream: That of owning a horse. I wish to have a Roman Cav Saddle made for it in order to portray an officer. Does anyone know who makes the doggone things? I Know that someone has because I have seen the photos in Dan Peterson's "Roman Legions in Colour" (Did he ever get the companion book on Roman Cav done?) I realize that I won't be able to get one made until I know what the horse's "Barrel" is, but I would like to contact a maker to get an approximate price quote. Just for the record, I plan to get a "gypsy" breed, approximately 14-14.5 hands high. Yes, I've studied Karen Dixon's book.....to death :lol: . Thanks again
Salve,
Vitruvius a.k.a. Larry Mager

[jvrjenivs]

Dan has been riding within Markus Junkelman his experiment. They had 5 horses, if I remember right. (See Markus Junkelmanns 'Die Rieter Roms' I, II and III)

Look at [url:1g2v1sbq]htt://www.comitatus.net[/url], there you'll find lots of info on roman cavalry, including good stuff on saddles.

Sources in Europe are there more.
Comitatus use Saddlers Den, if I'm right.
Timetrotter use Hetman Militaria
Markus Neidhard has them from a local saddler, which I forgot the name off.
Should be somewhere on his website I guess.

In the states, I only thing you could easily get, as far as I know is the Deepeeka one. But there was lots of discussion about the construction of that one. But again, I would advise you to read the Comitatus website.

[John Conyard]

The article at http://www.comitatus.net/cavalry4.htm considers the two major types of Roman reconstructed saddle.

Some still believe in the large heavy padded saddle. The majority would opt for a saddle with a wooden frame. Recent finds from Carlisle suggest the leather cover was stretched over the wooden frame, with no or little integral padding. PM me if you want further information, or a shot of part of the possible wooden tree that was discovered.

Good padding in the form of skins and blankets seems to make my framed saddle fit every horse I've tried it on. A split girth certainly helps.

I hope this comes off for you.

[Crispvs]

Nice you see that you have been able to update your page on saddles John. I see too that you have read my RAT postings on my observations at the Carlisle conference. :wink:

Crispvs

[John Conyard]

Hi Crispvs,

I'm glad you've found the new cavalry pages. Sadly the articles themselves are rather old, but they now have their own "cavalry" section of the website.

I did indeed benefit from your posts on RAT regarding the Carlisle finds maded during the summer of 2004. Dare I say I benefited even more from the paper writen by Sue Winterbottom in Newsletter 24 of the Archaeological Leather Group (ALG). http://www.archleathgrp.org.uk/ She helped finish the post excavation work from the Millennium Dig.

Their publication "In the Saddle" 2004 gives the position regarding reconstructions prior to Sue's paper. If you or anybody else has any other information I would be happy to receive it.

Comitatus has used many different reconstructions of the Roman horned saddle. The majority of these have been based on the Connolly wooden tree. We have also used German made so-called pad saddles, re-inforced with iron bars across the pommel and cantle. These are very heavy compared to our other saddles, and reminded me in many ways of the Spanish vaquera saddle. In my traditional version of this type of saddle the wooden pommel and cantle are reinforced with iron bars, and linked by leather "tubes" filled with rye grass. However the vaquera saddle uses very large linen-covered pads which contact the horses back, and a girth which goes right around horse and saddle. The German made Roman saddles lacked these features, and the last saddle we tried moved around the horses' back far too much for my liking. I think a split girth, a surcingle, or 6 inch nails could help this version of the Roman saddle. We passed it to Leg II Augusta as a display item with some tack I made for it. I am of course willing to believe others have had more success with such reconstructions.


My Connolly-style saddle has been altered to give the appearence of the Carlisle find. And I would love to make a reconstruction based on the current evidence. But that is a long way off..........

[Vitruvius]

Ave to all who have responded to me
John, my next questions are: How goes the reproduction of the early Imperiate saddles with Saddler's Den? After checking that site, I saw nothing regarding the Roman Saddles; Would your colleage at SD know of anyone here in the states who could make the saddles for me? By the way, your group looks impressive beyond words...Laudes are definitely due to you and your groups. If the rest of our fellow RAT members haven't seen the site, I DEFINITELY recommend that they do so!!!!!!!!!!
Warmest regards and THANK YOU to all who are responding to my request D D D ,
Salve,
Larry Mager a.k.a Vitruvius

[John Conyard]

Vitruvius, thank you for the kind comments on the Comitatus website. It does attract a great deal of attention due to the articles, and the quality of the photos. But I'm biased.

I believe Saddlers Den is open for orders of Roman saddles. But it is always wise to ask about production times. I'm not aware of anybody in the USA making such saddles. We occasionally get contacted by American re-enactors, and those from other countries, asking for advice. I think the McClellan saddle could provide a test bed for ideas. Horns could be attached to the wooden frame, and the shaped side panels would fit a horse better than many current Roman reproductions. Some modern cheap McClellan's don't seem to work that well on some horses at the stables. But my old 1917 version is a fine bit of kit. Leather and or rawhide covers would need to be ripped off, and various bits of metalwork removed.

Good luck. And when you get your first roman saddle, others just seem to follow.

[Vitruvius]

Ave John,
I had not considered the McClellan Saddle (didn't even know they were still being made :lol: :lol: :lol: ) I'll have to check the web for places to buy one. If you or any others would point me to the threads on the Carlisle finds I would be very appreciative. lol: :lol: :lol: )some more.

[John Conyard]

Hi,

I've PM'ed you about the articles.

There are lots of people turning out McClellan saddles in the USA. Some makers have excellent levels of authenticy which you pay for. Because you are going to strip the saddlle down I would go for a cheaper supplier. But make sure the saddle fits on the horse. The American Civil War Society cavalry unit in the UK bought some cheap versions of the McClellan, which don't fit any horse at the yard :roll: Obviously real old second hand army versions tend to work But it is an interesting point if we should destroy one artefact to make a poor copy of another. My 1917 McClellan has been reconditioned in to a Confederate McClellan. It's a very good job, but I'm not sure that it's ethical.

I've used a loop over the horns to get on my Roman saddle. But I was concerned about breaking the horns. A kneeling pede is my prefered mounting block.

King Arthur? Who's he?

[fasta]

Hi,

A kneeling pede is my prefered mounting block.

King Arthur? Who's he?

Yes it is isn't Victor?I can still feel the hobnails :lol:

[Robert Vermaat]

A kneeling pede is my prefered mounting block.

Yes it is isn't Victor?I can still feel the hobnails :lol:

Hobnails? For a cavalryman? Ouch! The Deurne shoe (which afaik is the only one we really know to have belonged to a cavalryman - but correct me if I'm wrong) had no hobnails.

[John Conyard]

hmmmm, that's a bit like the chap at Vindolanda who asked me why I was wearing a matching pair of shoes. He pointed out that they only discover one shoe at a time, and the finds didn't match up as pairs.

I suspect Fasta is joking about the stud marks. I hope he is. I use two or three pairs of shoes at weekends, depending on the show, the dateline and the weather. My riding shoes have no hobnails, but several pairs of my boots do. But in fairness the pede is normally protected by an animal skin of some sort.

More impressive was when Fasta hoisted me on his shoulders so we could run through a display with the "rider" at the correct height. He made an excellent cavalry pony and his manners where impecable. No napping, kicking or bitting. But he did refuse the saddle. He's a strong chap.

[fasta]

A kneeling pede is my prefered mounting block.

Yes it is isn't Victor?I can still feel the hobnails :lol:

Hobnails? For a cavalryman? Ouch! The Deurne shoe (which afaik is the only one we really know to have belonged to a cavalryman - but correct me if I'm wrong) had no hobnails.

Only joking but "some riders" have been know to use infantry for all sorts of things! hock: :? lol: