Wearing of belts

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

or like trying to herd cats.....

That might be hard for a rookie, but not for a pro - see here

Naaa, thats all smoke and mirrors..... :roll:
:lol:

[Crispvs]

Peronis,

Yes, I thought that the first time I saw that stele. I am just waiting until someone actually finds a plate like that. The Rhineland stelae normally try to make a game attempt at giving an impression of the plates they are depicting, so I imagine that the plates on these sculpted belts must be based on something real. The only problem for us now though is that until a real one is discovered we cannot be sure how accurate the depiction is.

Cezari,

Unfortunately, I think that AD80-90 would be a little late for type 'A' and 'B' plates, according to the current terminus post quem on the early AD70s (as I understand it to be).

I don't have any suitable images right now of the sort of plates you should be looking at but try the (probably damaged) one in this link for starters.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... f%26sa%3DN


Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

Cezari,

Unfortunately, I think that AD80-90 would be a little late for type 'A' and 'B' plates, according to the current terminus post quem on the early AD70s (as I understand it to be).

I don't have any suitable images right now of the sort of plates you should be looking at but try the (probably damaged) one in this link for starters.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... f%26sa%3DN

Are these Type B plates? I sometimes forget all of the typologies.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 870#219870

[Crispvs]

Yes. As they feature a central motif they are. Other typical (although not necessarily universal) features of type 'B' plates seen here are the side rolls, the bulbous heads emerging from the side rolls, the wider / squarer shape and being made from thin embossed sheet.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

That's from Herculaneum and the Vesuvius eruption.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So thats a Type B then... then the ones on my belt are Type A.

This whole past weeks focus on belts has been enlightening...
And this has helped to engrave the distinction in my gray(mushy)matter!

[Cacaius]

Hello Crispvs

I am thinking about recreating Leg XXI Rapax just before the time that it was destroyed .. ca. 90-92 AD. So my time is from 80-90 AD .. so 80's but not 90's.

I have seen in 'The early imperial "apron"', Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies 3, 1992, 81-104
number 23. C. Valerius Crispus with embossed belt ... and dating is "Flavian".


If embossed and niello pieces where still in use in 70's .. I may think that its not so far to 80's ... In fact I have no idea how often soldiers where changing their belts . If someone was recruited let say in 70 AD ... Does he changed his belt after few years ? Perhaps some could do this, some not. Some people are always trendy, some passe , some just likes "my first belt"

I guess that for the legion that was a lot of its time on the campaign, fabricae was working mostly on more important things, like: javelins, arrows, gladii, scuta etc .. rather then working on changing belts to new fashion, which was also much more expensive work.

Am I right ?


So my question is rather ..

IF for Flavian times niello deceorated cast pieces are still in use togehter with embossed pieces (not on one belt of course CAN WE say then that for example there was much much more embossed pieces then niello ones ? Or we dont have so much sources to clearly decide about that today ?

To be honest I havent seen any niello decorated for Flavian times yet. ... but I havent seen everything of course.

[Crispvs]

Unfortunately there will always be depositional biases which are invisible to us which may affect the sample we see. Therefore we will probably never know truly which type was most common at a particular time. We have to be led by the evidence which survives, which, as stated above, may be subject to unknown depositional biases. That said however, I think for a date in the 80s you would be best advised to steer clear of type 'A' plates and figural type 'B' plates. You may be on slightly safer ground with type 'B' plates with concentric circles.
I think you are right that there would still be some soldiers wearing older belts, whilst newer recruits would probably all be wearing the new style belts. Of course, that begs the question of when belts with type 'A' and 'B' plates stopped being manufactured, as opposed to being deposited. The lack of these plates on attested Flavian period sites suggests that they may have fallen out of use slightly earlier. I think that if your group wants to portray the army in the 80s you might have one or two older soldiers with old type 'B' belts with concentric circles (probably with a few plates missing) and the majority of the soldiers with the more modern type of plate which might have been in use by that time for twenty years or more.

Peronis put up some good pictures of Flavian period enamelled plates some weeks ago. I wonder if he might post them up again here. If none were available, I have little doubt that Nodge Nolan would be able to produce masters for some quite easily which Peronis could then make available through his Armamentaria site.

Crispvs

Regarding C. Valerius Crispvs, I thought that the dating on that stone was in some doubt, with some people putting it as early as the AD50s and others putting it as late as the end of the century, or am I getting confused?

Crispvs

[Crispvs]

As an important adendum to that, as Tarbicus has rightly pointed out in another thread, the Herculaneum solder in AD79 was wearing a belt with type 'B' plates, meaning that they may have been slightly more common in the AD80s than I indicated above. However, I still think that the younger soldiers would still have been wearing the more modern style of belt in the AD80s.

The Herculaneum soldier therefore shifts the terminus post quem for type 'B' plates to AD79. My apologies for not remembering this earlier.

Crispvs

[Crispvs]

Cezari,

I had a look at some of the Nodge Nolan plates which Peronis is selling through his Armamentaria site. I discussed it with him and we agreed that one of the plates he has would be suitable for your time period so if you ask him he will know which one you are talking about. It is only available as a normal plate at this stage but neither of us could see any reason why Nodge could not do a version with a hinge as well. I believe a similar one was found which did feature hinge lugs. You would then be able to attach a buckle and frogs.

Crispvs