Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD.

[Magnus]

Going back to a legionaries belt being an indication of his saved wealth. It would seem to follow then that a newer soldier would have a simpler belt, since he's amassed less wealth, and the exact opposite. An ornate belt may indicate a soldier's experience then.

[jvrjenivs]

Going back to a legionaries belt being an indication of his saved wealth. It would seem to follow then that a newer soldier would have a simpler belt, since he's amassed less wealth, and the exact opposite. An ornate belt may indicate a soldier's experience then.

That's also not totally true, as when entering the army you could loan money to get a kit together which was hold from your pay. Also, you(r familiy) could have a well going business somewhere in the Empire en so have some money.

[PhilusEstilius]

I think that Cesar is very aware of what I have pointed out earlier that the pitures on the originals were made with punches very similar to how coins were made. There is also evidence of backing to the originals, and Tarbicus like others have pointed out that another belt may well have been found showing concentric circles. This gives indication that our Miles may have had a two belt situation, with his Sword belt being a bit more decorative. I would also say that if anyone checks out the Konig web site on detail they will find that he has created different horses from those of the originals that pull the chariot of the God Soll, and there is every indication that his beltplates are cast however still a very nice belt. I must also say again that the cost in my opinion reflects the amount of Silver used in casting this belt, as indeed he himself points out that price would also adjust from the size of belt needed.

[Doc]

If someone were to use this belt for a later first century impression, then the pugio would be suspended from it not the sword. Would the sword not be worn on a baldric?

Thus this suggests to me that this belt could also be worn in a "cowboy" fashion with the other belt just like the wolf/twin and emperor/cornucopia belts could have been.

I seem to remember discussing (I will not mention with whom) at one point the possibility of wearing two of these same belts for a mid 1st century impression. However, I was told that since the belt was found in Popmeii from 79 AD, that it would be inappropiate for mid first century. Thus only one belt with a pugio and a baldric for the sword would be more "correct". I was also told that a belt with these size plates could not be worn in the "cowboy" fashion.

[Magnus]

Going back to a legionaries belt being an indication of his saved wealth. It would seem to follow then that a newer soldier would have a simpler belt, since he's amassed less wealth, and the exact opposite. An ornate belt may indicate a soldier's experience then.

That's also not totally true, as when entering the army you could loan money to get a kit together which was hold from your pay. Also, you(r familiy) could have a well going business somewhere in the Empire en so have some money.

But it's entirely possible, and a lot more practical than accumulating a massive debt before moving up in pay grades.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Going back to a legionaries belt being an indication of his saved wealth. It would seem to follow then that a newer soldier would have a simpler belt, since he's amassed less wealth, and the exact opposite. An ornate belt may indicate a soldier's experience then.

Yes, but the decoration does not say alot about the worth of an item in Antiquity. The material is decisive. Like in modern turkey, e.g. where you pay for the metal price when you buy jewelry, in Anitquity the quality of decoration was not making a difference in price - only rare high-quality pieces by famous artists were more expensive...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

If someone were to use this belt for a later first century impression, then the pugio would be suspended from it not the sword. Would the sword not be worn on a baldric?

Thus this suggests to me that this belt could also be worn in a "cowboy" fashion with the other belt just like the wolf/twin and emperor/cornucopia belts could have been.

I seem to remember discussing (I will not mention with whom) at one point the possibility of wearing two of these same belts for a mid 1st century impression. However, I was told that since the belt was found in Popmeii from 79 AD, that it would be inappropiate for mid first century. Thus only one belt with a pugio and a baldric for the sword would be more "correct". I was also told that a belt with these size plates could not be worn in the "cowboy" fashion.

I would have thought it'sdating would mean it was more than appropriate for mid first century!! :? P

[Doc]

So am I to understand that there were two belts found on this man?

One belt had the beaufiful decoration in silver and that the sword was attached to it while the other belt found on him had concentric circles and the pugio?

Byron, I know that you can go 25 years back from something given the extent to which a legionary served so if the belt was made at the beginning of his service, then it would be around 50 AD. However, I believe that a "pompeii" gladius was found on this man not a Mainz style. So I do not know how "correct" it would be to put a Mainz gladius there. I think that the pompeii gladius appearing on this belt gives some idea as to the dating; later first century. However, if the pompeii gladius was used during the reign of Claudius then it would be reasonable.

I would like to wear the two belt arrangement and this is one of my favorite belts but again most of my kit is literally from around the time of Claudius/Nero.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Doc:

The datation of the death of this man is in the year 79... :wink:

The silver plates belongs to the "pugio belt", as the pugio frogs shows.
I'm not sure how is decorated the other belt (the sword one). Initially i thought it was made in concentric cercles, but now, seein old pictures posted at Rat, seems it was a similar belt.

There are some more exemples of this kind of plates in Pompei or Stabia, so probably were made in the nearby. In fact, it's a kind of belt plate uncommon out of Vesubian area.

[Doc]

Cesar,

Thanks for your reply. It helps very much with my decision making. Thus you are suggesting that since the man died in 79 the belt plates could have been made in the 50's yes?

Good thing it is the pugio belt. At least there is one piece of the puzzle that is resolved.

Do you think therefore that putting a Mainz gladius on this belt would be period appropiate or would the pompeii gladius be more appropiate. I am planning to have the Valkenburg gladius. The wolf/twins would be period appropiate for this sword but since I have always liked the one from pompeii, I though it would be fine.

Would you happen to have pictures of the other belt at all? The reason I ask is because I would like to have a 2 belt "cowboy" arrangment and what better arrangment than two original belts worn by the same guy.

Some people suggest that since the belt plates are so big that only one belt would have been worn and the sword suspended by the baldric. Also others have told me that this late in the 1st century the two belts were not being used. Only one belt with the baldric but again if this man was found with two belts, then it may be an incorrect to say that the "cowbooy" belt arrangement is not being used.

[Doc]

Cesar,

Thanks for your reply. It helps very much with my decision making. Thus you are suggesting that since the man died in 79 the belt plates could have been made in the 50's yes?

Good thing it is the pugio belt. At least there is one piece of the puzzle that is resolved.

Do you think therefore that putting a Mainz gladius on this belt would be period appropiate or would the pompeii gladius be more appropiate. I am planning to have the Valkenburg gladius. The wolf/twins would be period appropiate for this sword but since I have always liked the one from pompeii, I though it would be fine.

Would you happen to have pictures of the other belt at all? The reason I ask is because I would like to have a 2 belt "cowboy" arrangment and what better arrangment than two original belts worn by the same guy.

Some people suggest that since the belt plates are so big that only one belt would have been worn and the sword suspended by the baldric. Also others have told me that this late in the 1st century the two belts were not being used. Only one belt with the baldric but again if this man was found with two belts, then it may be an incorrect to say that the "cowbooy" belt arrangement is not being used.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The skeleton was founded with a Pompei sword, so if you want to "duplicate" this soldier, you have to choose such sword.

Curious is that a little Mainz, with a pugio sizes was founded too asociated with this body. As is bad published, i'm not sure if it is the object visible in the picture and that i have identified as a pugio.

Seems that this is the another belt:
(Posted in other post by Richard Campbell)


I have used the search engine of RAT, and there are a lot of topics about that soldier. So, i think it were better to re-read the old topics, because there contains all the data actually disposable. If anybody have new aportations (another pictures of the plates, etc,) please post it.

[PhilusEstilius]

I have to agree with you Cesar that there are two belts, however the information about all of this material is a bit strange. The whole thing that we are discussing says Pompeii Herculanium, but then we don't know what came from where and this is what we need to know.

[M. Demetrius]

I guess I don't understand your suggestion, Brian. We do know that all these things were being worn by a particular unnamed soldier in August of 79AD, as his body, both belts, his pugio, gladius and money pouch were found in that mud.

[PhilusEstilius]

I would like to agree David however the latest picture that has been put forward by Cesar does show clearly that there were two belts of the same type. While earlier in the discussion we hear of a second belt that may have had concentric circles, this then puts a picture in my mind where we appear to be looking at three belts. Then of course when we go back to earlier discussion on RAT about Pompeii and Herculanium pieces we find pictures put forward that show to be two swords, also there are other more stranger plates so this is why I am trying to consider just what came from where.