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Was the leather muscled curiass of the later times sexier?
#46
Quote:Put it this way. If I'm to say that a muscled leather cuirass formed the undergarment of mail that was thrown over on top. I don't have to prove it. It is simply an opinion! An idea!
If you aren't prepared to back up your hypothesis with evidence or even a sensible argument then maybe RAT is not the place for you.

Quote:Remember the 3 P's of scientific opinion. Proposition, and that's what I've made. A proposal! One can make just about any kind proposal!
Which has no place here unless it is followed up by a sound argument backed up with primary evidence or tests that can withstand a reasonable amount of scientific scrutiny.

Quote:I'll enjoy my opinion! I'm imagining regiments of later legionaries on parade, minus the chain mail. In very fashionable leather muscled cuirasses. I like my Romans to dress to dress well! :roll:
Wearing a fashionable costume is far far different to wearing functional armour. Nobody has yet to produce anything to suggest that the Romans ever wore solid leather armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#47
Quote:Every painted or mosaical representation of musculata I've ever seen is either steel or brass coloured and shaded (possibly silver or gold); No brown ones.

All pteryges I've ever seen are white or a primary colour; No brown ones.

Show me brown or even beige musculata or pteryges in frescoes or mosaics and I might be more open to the possibility of Ren Fairre tat in the 1st-C AD.

If body armour was leather, why not helmets? Please, please, please, post any coloured representation of an ancient Roman soldier wearing leather musculata.

Well that could be case. I guess Hollywood liked doing pteryges in leather. It may be the case they were linen or some other textile. Leather only has advantage of absorbing wear and usually lasting a lot longer.

I'm only proposing a model view. I don't claim to have the prior rights to what the truth is. It is a proposition. Is it possible? I would say yes. I would like somebody to prove that it is impossible. What are the probabilities in another question?

The moderator has indicated to me that I should research the backlog of threads on the subject. Might take same time to find them all and review them.

As to why not helmets? That answer is simple. Because the skull itself is relatively rigid. The head is not the best absorber of concussion on our body. Perhaps the same reason the motorcyclist wears a helmet with a hard shell.
Steven.
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#48
Quote:I'm only proposing a model view. I don't claim to have the prior rights to what the truth is. It is a proposition. Is it possible? I would say yes. I would like somebody to prove that it is impossible
.
Good luck! Big Grin
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#49
The assumption was that leather armour was supposedly the armour of the Late Roman infantryman, and that this was shown on statues or other artistic representations. So far, I have seen none of that put forward.

I like keeping an open mind, but that does not mean accepting pure assumptions as if is were proof. Leather (not: rawhide) armour may be possible, but so far there is no proof that it actually occurred.

The orginal question:
Quote:Was the leather muscled curiass of the later times sexier?
Answer: no. Leather is less sexy than shiny metal. :wink:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#50
Get a good bow and a hunting arrow.

Shoot an arrow at metal plate.
Shoot an arrow at leather.

Nuff said.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#51
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... eather.htm

This guy's piece reads like a tour de force for Phil Barkers argument.

And it appears the armor in the statue piece can't be interpreted in any other way. Notice the leather cuirass is not of a rigid type. In fact it is quite possible that rigid leather might prove and inferior defense in circumstances of combat. A yielding leather could turn blows in a way rigid leather couldn't. By absorbing the force of the blow.
My dad and his ancestors were all trained leather workers. As kid I saw how tough the stuff was. And how long the stuff would last. This being the expensive stuff. Not the cheap rubbish that floats around today.

Phil Barker believed from the period of this statue onwards. That metal armor for infantry fell out of favor. And representions of mail clad soldiers were always cavalry.

Personally I can't believe this. I'd still be inclined to mail being added. Mail could be thrown the top of anything. The same would apply this style of armor. A multi layer defense could be the most effective.

It leaves me wondering why late roman armor was taking on the appearance of trans-Danubian styles?

I have speculation on this. In Barbarian societies duels to the death would have been common place. And their designs of armor may have reflected the lessons learned from this. I could hardly imagine Roman officers allowing duels to death in their own ranks. Inductee's seemed to be getting hard to come by in the late period. Not to mention the years of cost put into trained personal.

Maybe a duelist with mail had a big advantage.
Steven.
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#52
I'm locking this thread. Neither of you gentlemen have bothered to read previous threads, of which Mr. Clark's site was also discussed heavily.

I'd love for you to show me hardened leather that can bend as the "armor" is in this picture, without cracking or being damaged. I'd love to see regular leather bend like that, without becoming heavily creased.

Unfortunately you're seeing only what you want to see. Your mind is ignorantly closed, and there is absolutely no point in continuing this thread.
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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