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Legate/Tribune helmet hunt
#46
Ave Jim & Jeff,
Thanks for your input, both of you. The helments that you show are very similar and are under consideration. One has to admit that the "Thracian" style would set one off from the horde of "Praetoriohollywood" types. :lol: :lol: . The input from members of the Board is convincing me that I am on the right track. If anyone disagrees or has a better idea, by all means speak up. I shall be interested in seeing how this thread plays out!

Again, many thanks, Jeff and Jim in particular and to all in general!

Salve,
Vitruvius a.k.a Larry A. Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#47
you're very welcome :wink:
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#48
Quote:Why are these attributed to tribunes and legates? Is it Hollywood? I can't think of a single representation of a tribune, legate, or even Emperor wearing one of these, but plenty of Praetorians and unallocated troops.

Here's one of a Praetorian tribune, on the left. His 'herculean knot' tied at the waist indicates his status as a tribune or legate.
But, then again, all the soldiers surrounding the emperor are wearing attic helmets. This instance is repeated on several panels on the Arch of Constantine - the emperor is always surrounded by soldiers (i.e. Praetorians) wearing attics. So, this could be evidence, however meager, that the attic helmet was worn by the Guard and their officers.

~Theo
Jaime
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#49
Ave Jaime, Jeff and all!
I agree that the "Attic" Helm is shown on most sculptures, yet I must wonder if such depictions weren't a form of visual short-hand just as the medieval characters in the various church plays tended to be? Don't misunderstand, please, as I feel that there was, in fact, such helments, Just not so widely used. Speaking of scarce, has any one heard from Dr. Travis Clark of Musculata website fame? Anyway, I'm still looking for a different angle photo of that Rhodes Trophy statue! :?
Salve for now
Vitruvius a.k.a. Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#50
Ave Larry,

Quote:yet I must wonder if such depictions weren't a form of visual short-hand
Well, most depictions are found on propaganda artwork so I think it's a definate possibility.
There's only one stele I know of that may depict an attic helmet - that of Severus Acceptus (legio VIII Augusta)
from the 3rd century AD.

Quote:Don't misunderstand, please, as I feel that there was, in fact, such helments, Just not so widely used
Welcome to the minority camp :wink:

Quote:Speaking of scarce, has any one heard from Dr. Travis Clark
Not for some time. I sure miss reading his posts.

~Theo
Jaime
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#51
Quote:
Tarbicus:23q57kob Wrote:Why are these attributed to tribunes and legates? Is it Hollywood? I can't think of a single representation of a tribune, legate, or even Emperor wearing one of these, but plenty of Praetorians and unallocated troops.

Here's one of a Praetorian tribune, on the left. His 'herculean knot' tied at the waist indicates his status as a tribune or legate.
But, then again, all the soldiers surrounding the emperor are wearing attic helmets. This instance is repeated on several panels on the Arch of Constantine - the emperor is always surrounded by soldiers (i.e. Praetorians) wearing attics. So, this could be evidence, however meager, that the attic helmet was worn by the Guard and their officers.

~Theo

Still not convinced Theo. Looks similar to the other helmets. The question is whether the brow plate was separate, or hammered from the bowl. We have dug up examples of the latter, but still no extant examples of the former.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#52
Quote:The question is whether the brow plate was separate, or hammered from the bowl.
Yes, I understand the distinction. The latter 'type' was hammered in (embossed?) like some early Italian examples.
However, strangely enough, on every depiction of an attic helmet (afaik) the brow plate seems to "pop out" from the bowl.

The Louvre reliefs and the aforementioned Severus Acceptus stele don't seem to leave room for interpretation, IMO.
OTOH, you're right, there's no archeological remains to support the artistic depictions.

Heh, now you have me wondering how feasible it would be to replace the brow plate on my helmet
with a hammered version. :wink:

BTW, you can find a detailed drawing of the Severus stele in 'Bishop & Coulston', page 174.
I wonder what the man's rank was. He has greaves which leads me to think he may have been a centurion or cavalryman.

~Theo
Jaime
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#53
I still can't help but think this Attic attributed style is a big clue to the construction of these helmets.
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... rough.html

The Italic A also has a "pop-out" brow piece, hammered from the bowl and with the typical circular ends about the temples.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#54
I agree with you there Jim. Definately more than a family resemblence there!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#55
A must-see set of postings, courtesy of Francesco Quatrano.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 310#223310
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#56
Yeah, they are good pictures. Smile
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#57
Ave Jamie Smile
I have seen the stele of Severus and according to the Osprey book,(as I'm sure you already know), is a 3rd C. helm that "sort of" resembles an "attic" helm. I have to admit, it does look "cool" :lol: That would even work for John's group (the Equites Tailfai). What say you Mr. Conyard? I'm REALLY thinking about one for my cavalry impression; wonder if Joe at Lonely Mountain would make me one?
For now
Salve my friends
Vitruvius a.k.a. Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#58
Larry,

I'd like to own a reproduction of the Theilenhofen helmet like the one below. Perfect for cavalry impressions. :wink:

It's real, it's Roman, and it's gorgeous (IMO) 8)

~Theo
Jaime
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#59
Noooo, Noooo, It's mine I say, mine!!! :lol:

It is pretty bling. 8)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#60
wow that's quite a helm.

That must be the helmet that the praetorian helms in gladiator were based off of, tho they felt the need to color them black, along with black segs........
AKA Travis S.
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