The limit of one-handed spear length.

[PMBardunias]

For reenactors, I am curious to know from your experience what the maximum length for a spear weilded with one hand, over- or underhand, would be?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Where is the problem with the limit? Weight? It is more important how much of its own weight the spear can hold. Spears appear to have been rather slim,and I know that at least my spear bends when I hold it and bends even more when I walk or run. I don't think it is likely to break by itself,but it's not a very long one. About 2.3m if i remember correctly. Tappered spears may could be longer. And of course lets not forget the matterial used for the shaft. My spear is 2.3cm all the way and I think it's a good thickness,but I'm sure some shafts reached at about 1-1.5 cm in the spear point. I have seen remains if such shafts!
What other factors could eliminate the lenght of the spear?Perhaps how it could be handled in the phalanx? But we cannot test this,can we?
Khaire
Giannis

[Kineas]

Since we're doing this--ie, fighting with period weapons--once or twice a week, I'd say that the limit on length is determined by the style of fighting. If I want to have point control--the ability to place my point where I want in an attack--then the limit may well be more to do with vision inside a helmet than length of weapon.
I mention this because we play around with grips--mid shaft, 2/3ds shaft--and we find that where you hold a weapon instantly changes how you fight--which would affect how your phalanx fought.
My experience is that spears longer than twelve feet are unwieldy in one hand--but heck, pikes that are 24 feet long are utterly unwieldy, but people seem to have used them!

[Paullus Scipio]

Kineas' experience would appear to be spot on. Historically speaking, the maximum length referred to for one-handed spears, regardless of how used, the weight, the type of head, or thickness of shaft and regardless of culture, is 12 ft aprox (3 m).........

[PMBardunias]

My experience is that spears longer than twelve feet are unwieldy in one hand--

Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I was wondering about Iphicratid's spears. I have heard that 12' is about as big as you can get and still be weilded in a single hand effectively. I'll note that this is by modern men who are generally taller than ancient greeks, so an army men 5'4" to 5'6" may not find this so.

My interest is that if the "long" spear of iphicratids is used two handed, then they must be armed with a double-grip pelta, while if the spear is single handed, then the pelta need not be double-grip and essentially a thureos in all but name.

[Kineas]

Paul, I think you know this already, but local experimentation in Toronto is that you can double grip a spear with almost any shield short of a full bore late period aspis--even the earlier, flatter aspis allows you to get the second hand on your spear. You can tell this must be true by seeing them grab their second spear/javelin/longche, right? And experimentation with a couple of shield forms has show this to be true.
Thought experiment--if the ropes inside an aspis (shown in many representations but not, by any means, all) lead into the antelabe, it is possible that the antelabe was adjustable.
Just theorizing, but consider for a moment that you lose some control of your shield, but you gain the ability to hold a javelin or conceivably double grip a spear. Before you think I've jumped off a cliff here, consider that at least in Athens and Corinth, many hoplites might also be called upon (in the 490-400 period) to serve as Marines, right? And marines often carried javelins?
Sorry--I don't mean this to be in any way sweeping--just an idea of how soldiers may have to adapt equipment for different field conditions.
Myself, I've been setting up my aspis with a spear and trying to figure out if I can camp under it. No kidding. It's dry under there!

[Kineas]

Sorry, late add on. Aurora (who needs to post more herself) is small--I think she's 5'4" or so--and she has about the same limitations on spear wielding I do (6 foot and 35 inch arms). I'm pretty sure that a giant (7 foot) can wield a longer spear one handed, but 12 feet seems to be the max for most sizes of fighters.

Memory says that the Grand captain himself ordered his pike men to cut their pikes to 12 feet (we're in 1499 here, I think, Don Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba) as it was the ideal length. Ideal for fighting, or for marching across Italy? Who knows?

[PMBardunias]

Paul, I think you know this already, but local experimentation in Toronto is that you can double grip a spear with almost any shield short of a full bore late period aspis--even the earlier, flatter aspis allows you to get the second hand on your spear. You can tell this must be true by seeing them grab their second spear/javelin/longche, right?

This I did not know. You can double-grip a spear with a scutum?? This refers to the pelta/thureos dichotomy I referred to above depending on a single or double grip. Double gripping is far different that holding a reserve spear due to the angles involved- one along, the other across the shield's axis. Also, I don't think there is much evidence for the aspis being shallower early on. Where did you read this?

Thought experiment--if the ropes inside an aspis (shown in many representations but not, by any means, all) lead into the antelabe, it is possible that the antelabe was adjustable.

You may not know, but it is one of my many wacky theories that the antilabe was originally a rope-truss that helped the shield keep its shape. this was probably not needed any longer in later solid wooden shields, thoug its place seems to be taken by metal reinforcing bands. If I am correct, then the antilabe had to be adjustable to add tension before battle. The concept is commonly used to strengthen ancient ship hulls- known as a tormentum in Latin, which tell you how they tightening it.

Even if they were largely decorative later on, they may still have been adjustable.

Just theorizing, but consider for a moment that you lose some control of your shield, but you gain the ability to hold a javelin or conceivably double grip a spear. Before you think I've jumped off a cliff here, consider that at least in Athens and Corinth, many hoplites might also be called upon (in the 490-400 period) to serve as Marines, right? And marines often carried javelins?

Not off the deep end at all, they seem to have carried 2 spears and an aspis early on- chigi vase for example. We had a discussion on here a while back and Giannis fairly convinced me that you might be able to let the porpax bear all the weight while you held it. I was thinking it could also be slipped under a higher or lower loop of the antilabe to hold it in place and if you play with the spacing, this could have the same tension needed to finally grip it with your hand comfortably.

The problem with double-gripping is the rim, which means that your shield is held edge-on to the enemy if you double grip.

Sorry--I don't mean this to be in any way sweeping--just an idea of how soldiers may have to adapt equipment for different field conditions.
Myself, I've been setting up my aspis with a spear and trying to figure out if I can camp under it. No kidding. It's dry under there!

You can bathe in it too! Or mix your wine in it, some tripod bowls can be mistaken for aspises.

[PMBardunias]

Memory says that the Grand captain himself ordered his pike men to cut their pikes to 12 feet (we're in 1499 here, I think, Don Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba) as it was the ideal length. Ideal for fighting, or for marching across Italy? Who knows?

Didn't De Saxe recommend 12' half-pikes in his reveries? But then these could be held in two hands.