constructing and mounting a porpax

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

These schollars are most probably comparing the hoplite with the roman legionaire,or even celtic warriors,or medieval knites,in other words,soldiers that were the top in their own period. One would say that with time soldiers were becoming better and better,that's why the different systems are being replaced by the new ones,but clearly this is not correct as many other factors except from efectiveness play thier role in what system is followed in every period. That said,the hoplite may indeed had been in difficulty to resist alone in those one-to-one fighters. And yet another question,would a lightly armed hoplite of the late 4th century win in man-to-man combat with a late 7th century hoplite? Better mobility? Better trainning? Better equipment(sight,comfort)? They were both hoplites. At last,hoplites were the middle and highest class of citizens,those who could go to the gymnasium,learn boxing,pankration,go to the Olympics. Would an armoured pankrationist be more effective against and unarmoured pankrationist armed say with a sword/dagger? Unresolved questions in my opinion. But if a hoplite falls,he's doomed. What can you do with the round,double gripped,heavy aspis?
As for reality...do we ever see lightly armed troops fighting hoplites,even when they are in great disorder? I can't think of once such occasion when the hoplites didn't win.
Again interestingly,those schollars are always ready to say that one-on-one a hoplite could bring down a heavy cavalryman.
Those of you with full panoply could experiment and say what a hoplite CAN'T do. Only very accurate equipment could serve this. For example say "a hoplite can't kneel"(we know they could),or "if he falls down he can't stand on his feet unless..."
I still lack my aspis.
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/artemisara ... 359822556/
Aspis rim of an Athenea Promakhos member.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

All things being equal, I'd rather go out to face a horde of enemies in a panoply than, say, dressed as a Persian Immortal (according to Herodotus). The bow is nice, but the scale shirt and wicker shield will not keep me alive as long as the bell corselet and the Corinthian helmet and the aspis. Put on a pair of greaves, give me a spear--wow, I'm as invulnerable as the 6th C. can make me and I can still move fast.

I can't speak for other authors, but for me the comparison is simply between a hoplite with an aspis and a hoplite with a single, center grip shield like a thureos/scutum or the perfectly good center grip shields that the greeks had before the aspis. I have yet to meet a reenactor who would rather fight one on one or one against a group with an aspis than a scutum.

Comparing across types that are so divergent is not as informative as comparing along the line of development of the greeks themselves. At some point in the 8th c there were men who probably wore the same armour, but changed their shields to the aspis. In my opinion this made them less capable as individual fighters, but better in groups.

This does NOT mean incapable. Obviously out-runners could still be quite effective. Much of this is probably due not to the panalopy, but the man bearing it. We tend to be too deterministic about weapons systems and forget the men inside them.

[Kineas]

As far as I know, all Medieval shields are double "grip" unless bucklers. I lack any meaningful experience fighting with a center-grip shield. I always assumed that they were inferior--but I guess I better try it before I become dismissive!

Giannis, I agree about testing. I will add falling and getting up to my list of tests for when my panoply is complete. But I can get to my feet in plate armor with a double "grip" shield--without either hand touching the ground. It's something you learn to do rather quickly...

Is it possible that we're talking about conditioning and core strength? Men (and women!) who fight in armor (the SCA comes to mind) get what they call "armor conditioning" whereby they learn to conserve energy in armor--and also when to expend it, and how to, say, get to their feet without their hands.

I'll take this opportunity to note that so far, our 36 inch Aspis, with bronze fittings, rope, porpax, paint, and linen and glue--weighs about 12 pounds. The 32 inch version (Lorica's) weighs just ten pounds exactly. The wood blanks (the core) weigh between seven and eight pounds. I suspect that a bronze-faced version would weigh LESS than the gesso and linen and glue. It'll be a year before I have the skills to make one (or Lorica does) but we're working towards it.

We could make the aspis even lighter by making the "dish" shallower. Giannis is right in saying ours are deeper than most--not deeper than is authentic, just deeper than perhaps is average. A shallower bowl would probably knock another pound off the thing. That said, the finished shield weighs less than my Brown Bess musket (my other period)...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Indeed many re-enactors say their aspis is not all that heavy,but then,why do we listen of ancient writers talking of the "heavy aspis" and not of the "heavy scutum"? And I'm clear that i don't remember at the moment the phrase "heavy aspis", just talking about the heavy panoply of the hoplite. But this is always a comparison with the unarmoured mass of the poor or the Barbarians...
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

As far as I know, all Medieval shields are double "grip" unless bucklers. I lack any meaningful experience fighting with a center-grip shield. I always assumed that they were inferior--but I guess I better try it before I become dismissive!

From what I have heard you'll be pleasantly suprised when you try one. The "medieval" period is a long one, and early on most shields are single-grip bossed shields. Cavalry shields become double-grip as the period progresses, even dismounted knights used these shields, and I assume this is what you have experience with. Many infantry kept the single-grip shields, with the glaring exception of pavisemen and other large shield types which are sometimes even triple-grip (elbow, forearm, and fist) and surely not adapted for mano a mano.

I agree that the aspis was probably quite light for its size.

[PMBardunias]

why do we listen of ancient writers talking of the "heavy aspis"

Perhaps because they did not pick them up all that often. I forget which author wrote degradingly that his young hoplites could not hold the aspis above their knees, but holding anything up in a bent left arm that you are not used to is taxing.

[Kineas]

Speaking just from recreations--an aspis is VERY heavy when compared to a pelte. My pelte reconstructions--leather faced, double gripped, with bronze reinforcement and etc--weigh about 2 pounds. That's 1/5 of a light aspis.

On the other hand, a small shield is useful only if you use it fairly aggressively, which means you burn a lot more energy.

In fighting, we noted that man on man, the pelte wielder and the hoplite are almost even (no armor in this experience, just shields, spears and swords). However, as soon as the fight became 2x2 or 3x3, even if the fight was quite "open", the peltasts died like lemmings. the reason is not apparent until you participate--the pelte bearers are exceptionally vulnerable to blows that they DON'T SEE COMING--blows from the angles in a line--whereas the hoplites are still covered from almost 1/2 of all blows, even if they do not mount an active defense. It's actually hard to explain just how fast 3 hoplites eliminate 3 peltasts.

However, my point is that this has nothing to do with close formation. The 3x3 fight can be spread out at big intervals--like a skirmish. It is a factor of fighters who have to think "outside the ring" or outside a 1x1 fight--the men with the small shields are suddenly vulnerable, and it affects their actions.

The hoplites have other advantages, too--which tell in a 1x1. A hoplite can simply push with his shield and his peltast opponent is doomed if caught. A man with a small shield can be wounded just by the rim of the aspis striking him in the neck and face--before the kopis or the spear does its work!

We're all eager to have enough aspides done to try some hoplite vs. hoplite fighting on a scale bigger than 2x2...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

why do we listen of ancient writers talking of the "heavy aspis"

Perhaps because they did not pick them up all that often. I forget which author wrote degradingly that his young hoplites could not hold the aspis above their knees, but holding anything up in a bent left arm that you are not used to is taxing.

You're right. It was Aristophanes who said this. And he does not compare the aspis with another type of shield, just stating that it's hard for an untrained arm.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

My pelte reconstructions--leather faced, double gripped, with bronze reinforcement and etc--weigh about 2 pounds.

I've been wondering about the grip of a pelta recently. Sometimes on vases we see a single grip, sometimes a double- sometimes a truly elaborate triple grips with criss-crossing braces over the arm. I'm not convinced these are all accurate depictions. One answer may be that the grip consisted of two ropes, close enough together to be gripped in one hand, but also capable of being slipped over the forearm, or one over the forearm and the other gripped in the hand. For example see the image below.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nice thought. But if they have to be used by one hand they have to be so close together that it would be impossible for the whole arm to pass through. And often the stripes shown are much longer. May I note that some peltes have even bronze porpakes like the aspides. In my opinion the pelte was an individual shield,who didn't identify you as a particulal soldier,like the hoplite. OK,obviously peltasts took their name from the pelte,but pelte is not something specific,it can be circular,cresent,flat,holow and many different cultures used a similart type od shield. The etymology of the word would probably help define meaning. So if i was a javelineer,part of the mass of light troops acompanying an army I would sure want a light shield, I would buy(or make) one that suited my preferences. I think it makes sence this way?
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

I would agree with Giannis.....I don't think a dual purpose 'double grip' to slip the arm through and also use single-handed is practicable, but perhaps our re-enactors can shed more light on this.

Giannis is also correct that the Pelte appeared in many forms, many shapes, made from a variety of materials, different sizes, and in many cultures.....which makes it difficult to define 'pelte' beyond "a small to medium sized relatively lightweight shield".

[PMBardunias]

But if they have to be used by one hand they have to be so close together that it would be impossible for the whole arm to pass through. And often the stripes shown are much longer.

This can be done, you just have to adjust the length of rope and how far apart they are so that they meet in the middle. There is a practical limit and reconstruction might show it to be unusable, but it is possible.

May I note that some peltes have even bronze porpakes like the aspides.

Are there any archaeological finds of these? I have many images of pelta with porpaxes and frankly I don't believe they are real. I think greek artists are simply adding what they knew well to shields that are often used by Amazons and other mythical figures.

[Kineas]

Paul, I'll undertake to try a reconstruction as you suggest, early in the new year.

[Kineas]

Just an update on the shields in progress.

This is Lorica's Aspis, which needs only a few hours of painting to be complete.



This is Theron's aspis, ditto, with Dima, our shield artist, at work.



if you look carefully, you can just see the charcoal of his first draft at the cup of Dionysus.

Here are the next two porpax blanks ready for mounting on the next pair of shields.



We should have six done by April--when the next six blanks are ready!