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constructing and mounting a porpax
#46
Giannis, we'll just have to agree to disagree about shield changes. That's for another thread, and another time.
For this thread, have to say that I think Lorica will back me up in saying that gold has no meaningful strength--at least not in that shape. BUT if the hinges and hidden flanges were iron, the gold would look nice and the iron would do the work.

Nice thing about Iron is that it's much cheaper than bronze, at least for reenactors...

final, impractical note--it seems to me from stuff in Arrian and other sources--late, but probably trustworthy--that there were no "decorator only" shields. Even those shields with gold and ivory inlay were probably carried and used. You see this again in the Middle Ages--magnificent shields that were in fact used. I suspect this is linked to the early modern desire of soldiers to fight in their best kit. In fact, for my second aspis, I will probably try to do inlay instead of paint, and a bronze device about 18 by 12 inches... anyway, that's for when the other 29 aspides are built...

Lorica and I have to build a shield for a friend--it might be that we'll experiment with his (har, har) and see if we can do the pin and hinge system.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#47
Giannis, I can't seem to make that link work.....could you check it. please?

Thanks for posting those photos again."The Vatican shield" in the Museo Gregoriano is often said to be the only surviving 'relatively intact' Aspis, but the fourth photo (lower right) appears also to be taken in the Museo Gregoriano, but is very obviously a different shield!!

It appears they have a second Aspis, almost certainly from another Etruscan tomb.

Do you have any more photos/information regarding the second shield?
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#48
Good catch, Paul--I missed that, and now I also see that it illustrates a problem we're having--it shows a rim that has a join! Huzzah! we've been having some issues with joinless rims...
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#49
OK,link fixed. We have discussed that shield before and of cource it isn't the same shield,but the photo came as it is,no need to get confused with it. I don't have any more info on this.
Kineas,I'm sorry but I dare say this is not a joint on the rim. It's jys dishaped. The rims were one piece with the rest of the facing and even when separate rims are found,they don't have a joint,they are intact.
Of course for you it will be an enormous waste of bronze sheet if you want to make intact rims.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#50
The problem, Giannis, is that our bronze smith expert--on of Lorica's former professors--says that there's no reason to make the rim in a single piece. I'm beginning to suspect this is just out of his experience--that a shield rim is basically like a tire (a metal tire on a wooden wheel--I used to do a little smithing at a re-created 19th C. village).
But there should still be ONE join.
Truth to tell, Giannis, I think we have too few examples--and I begin to suspect that there were quite a few styles.
Sigh--so much to learn.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#51
Kineas,the examples are not so few. But you are correct in that there were some ways to do it. In fact,not ways,but types. One type is the all-covered-in-bronze shield with the rim. In that case there is no need to be a joint. The other two ways are the one-piece rim,where in fact there is the rim and there usually was a small part of the bowl covered just for an inch or something. There "should" be a joint,but not quite,as the ancientd didn't have ready bronze sheet,but they had to hammer it all in shape,thus a joint is not necessary. The third way is a bit more complicated to explain and far easier to make. There is a sheet of bronze covering the frontal part of the rim but not turning to cover the back. It is secured in place by another ring of bronze that is placed covering the back and is cut in triangles who bent to the front,securing both rings in place. Also do not forget that even the vatican shield that has a full bronze cover was secured by sever small nails in the back of the rim cover. As far as i remember the nails/rivets do not survive but the tiny holes on the bronze faceing do.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#52
Soon, I'll have photos of Lorica's completed aspis.

In th emean time, here's my question of the day.

When you see a contemporary illustration of a shield with a dagged edge (I use Kevin Hendryx's from his website without permission, apologies but it was the only one I could find online in a hurry!, and it's a fine example of a period edge)

[Image: hoplon.jpg]

does anyone out there think that those triangles were originally bronze? It would be a very straightforward method of making an edge--rather like what Giannis suggests above, but with TWO sets of triangles facing each other, and the "line" in between being the width of the shield edge on. The whole thing would go on like a primitive chariot tire, with the points of the triangles going "in" to the shield both inside and outside the rim.


[img]http://photos-d.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v374/145/122/681611203/n681611203_1640787_6693.jpg
I ask this in hopes that others will concur that this is what the dagged edge means, because so far, it is the only form of shield edge that I think I can replicate. Forging a rim entire--I remember watching a master smith do that with wheel rims. I don't even know where to find someone to do that...


I ask this in hopes that others will concur that this is what the dagged edge means, because so far, it is the only form of shield edge that I think I can replicate. Forging a rim entire--I remember watching a master smith do that with wheel rims. I don't even know where to find someone to do that...




[/img]
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#53
Kineas,there are actually one or two such rims,I didn't make the theory on my own. The triangles were much thinner. Only the front fold was triangles though,the back was a plain ring(wich means you will have at least one joint,but it will be visible only from the inside). To visualize it using Kevin's shield,the white triangles would be bronze folded from the inside to the outside of the rim. The black triangles would be the visible part of the bronze sheet underneath. This sheet would not be triangles. It would be secured by the triangles that covered it.
Triangles bent in the inside was the method later macedonian bronze facings covered the pelte.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#54
Giannis wrote:
Quote:Kineas,there are actually one or two such rims,I didn't make the theory on my own......
Really? What is the evidence for Aspides rims having triangles turned over the face? Given the paucity of archaeological evidence ( and I can't recall seeing such a shield rim in archaeology ) I am rather skeptical of this.....the more so because that particular shield design is my invention, my own interpretation ( back in the 1970's) of what a Spartan shield MIGHT have looked like, as painted by Jeff Burn, and illustrated on P.47 "Warfare in the Classical World" - I still have my original sketches to prove it ! The triangular rim design was 'borrowed' from one of the shields illustrated on the Chigi vase, and is just one of several rim decoration designs. Since the Chigi vase shows this type of decoration front and back, it is highly unlikely to represent a turned over triangular edge.( AFIK there are no archaeological or iconographic illustrations of a Spartan 'Lambda' Aspis, and certainly not back then).

Quote:Triangles bent in the inside was the method later macedonian bronze facings covered the pelte.

This is correct...more than one example of a Macedonian pelte cover, which was rimless, being finished in this fashion is known, but I can't recall any rimmed Aspis being so fashioned......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#55
OK,back on work to try find again that shield...I will,don't doubt Big Grin
But in any way I'd like to see those first sketches if you don't mind!
The first sketches of a famous illustration,that's most interesting to me!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#56
And as promissed:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/278 ... d82b_o.jpg
And here again,with some more shields. I had read in an article from the American Jurnal of Archaeology that the facings of the dedicated shields were flatened.Perhaps these are two such examples.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... 2/sizes/o/
OK,it seems it was the same shield i was remembering,but originally before restoration it must have had a bronze sheet under the triangles,as seen here
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... ART041.jpg
And an example of the other rim type,jointless,with a portion of the bowl covered. This is the most frequent type,but usually the rim is also highly decorated.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... GP9078.jpg
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#57
O.K. .....here you go, one from the archives c.1977 ! I proposed and sketched several possibilities, but as you can see from the editor's note "Jeff, this one" this was the illustration that made it into the book.....

Jeff prepared a pencil sketch working from this which came to me for corrections and then it became a full-colour plate, which was then photographed for insertion into the book ( pre-computer age !! )....as you can see, Jeff's composition etc was a vast improvement on my rather poor sketch Sad
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#58
Hey! This is quite some document on firts global release here on RATBig Grin It's a good sketch and I see Jeff followed it closely. If only that lamda...but doesn't matter. This illustration has influenced thousants,artists and re-enactors till today! That makes it successful,doesn't it?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#59
Thanks for the photos Giannis !! (which I think you have put up on other threads)

However, they appear to pose more questions than answers....

The latter rims (in the shot of the two warriors) are obviously 'solid', but the photos aren't clear enough to see if there is a joint or not.

The first one, with the triangles, doesn't appear to be 'dagged' triangles, but rather a solid rim like the others but with decorative triangles cut out .

Is this so? Have you seen these examples in the museum yourself?
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#60
And I don't think you will find a joint in any such rim,Paul. I mean,even if there was a joint,wasn't there a way to make it invisible back then? Personally I believe they had ways to make them without joint at all. Perhaps other images of these and other rims would support joints or not joints better,but I'll say the truth,it takes me hours to find a particular piece I have in mind each time :? I for one don't see a joint in those two rims,who oddly are identical and plain.
I know what you mean about the triangles,I thought that myslef,but I like to believe it's actually separate triangles whos point is secured by yet another ring. Even if it was not constructed this way,Kineas can do it and it will look ok.I haven't been in olympia museum for a veeeery long time,and unfortunately I don't remember most of the details I now wish i had noticed.I was too young Sad However I have spent hours looking at photos of whatever find from that excellent museum.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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