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07-16-2004, 11:37 AM

Does anyone have any info on the forensic nature of fatal gladius stab and slash wounds including likely time taken for death and/ordisablement to occur? 
 
Thanks

07-16-2004, 03:35 PM

Do you realy want to correspond with smeone who has ????? 
 
If you dont I do 
 
Conal

07-17-2004, 10:57 AM

I dont know (and probably dont want to know!) why your interested in that, but it depends where the injury occurs doesn't it? there isn't a set time until death, it depends on so many aspects such as where, how deep, whether it punctures any vital organs or blood vessels, and even aspects within them! you need to be more specific with perhaps an example.

07-17-2004, 04:22 PM

Why are some here so shocked people ask that sort of question? 
 
In case you need info for the same reason as I, ie. to describe wounds, torture and medical treatment realistically in a novel, the best thing is to show the scenes you need help with to a doctor, preferably a specialist for surgery. There are also books about Ancient Medicine (sorry, the best one I read is in German, but I suppose there are English ones as well) where the treatment of wounds is described. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gabrielecampbell>gabriele campbell</A> at: 7/17/04 6:23 pm

07-17-2004, 05:59 PM

There was a thread recently on RAT where someone stabbed himself in the thigh with his gladius (an example of extreme reconstructive archeology?). I understand that he recovered, so you might search the archives and ask him.

07-17-2004, 08:10 PM

How clumsy do some people get? I hope his friends don't let him go near sharp and pointy things any more.

Caius Fabius · 07-17-2004, 09:28 PM

Actually the surgeons and such are not as familiar with these types of wounds as paramedics, ER doctors and nurses, and military medics. Of course, anyone who actually works with live steel, and sharp weapons will have a few stories after a while. 
 
One of my many injuries was while crafting a blade, and during the polishing, while the triangular blade was a vise, I managed to stab the blade 1 1/2 inches into the back of my forearm. Contrary to SCA conventions or various books, the wound was not that painful, nor did it stop me from working on the anvil for the next couple of hours (after slapping some spider webs into the hole to stop the bleeding)..

07-17-2004, 10:15 PM

Well, I have an arachnophobia, and that includes the webs produced by those eight legged critters, so I'll have to stick to more modern methods. But when outside and managing to cut my legs on some thorny bushes (I never wear trousers, onky skirts), I use burdock juice for cleaning, and tree sap to stop the bleeding (works well on minor wounds). 
 
If a blade is very sharp, the wound will indeed not be painful. While I joked about clumsy reenactors, I have my own list of experiences with a 11th century Norman style bastard sword. 
 
I asked that surgeon about the damage caused by torture with the strappado. If I knew a military medic, I'd ask him about swrod wounds - wish I knew one. Some years ago, I saw an exhibiton which included bones and skulls that showed marks of sword and arrow wounds but also signs of healing - it was amazing what sort of wounds some people survived, especially considering the lack of medical knowledge in the 9th century (in that special case). 
 
Take care with those sharp and pointy things, amice.

scythius · 07-18-2004, 06:09 AM

Quote:<hr>I hope his friends don't let him go near sharp and pointy things any more. <hr> 
 
We do - but his wife doesn't! Scythius 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

07-18-2004, 09:07 AM

Sorry to disappoint those of a more lurid imagination, but I am researching the last battle between Boudica and Suetonius. There is a huge casualty disparity and many modern authors claim, rather dangerously and often selectively, I feel, that the ancients exaggerate in the texts. My question is really related to the efficiency of a killing blow in the thorax or abdomen - a standard target. Obviously things go pear-shaped in combat - see accounts of recent SAS missions to see the impact of combat on highly trained troops - but I assume that Roman training was efficient at encouraging the delivery of a killing stroke by instinct. If so, you don't want still -live enemy casualties underfoot if you can help it - particularily as you must move forward to deliver the casualty rates indicated by sources. 
Having talked to a doctor who reckons that an instantaneous killing stroke could be delivered up through the diaphragm into the chest cavity and possibly into the heart, it strikes me that the natural swing of a gladius may well do that , but I'm looking for hard evidence. 
 
Cheers 
gaius

07-18-2004, 09:59 AM

I have never fought with a gladus, but considering the fact that this weapon is best used for stabbing, a thrust in the chest would require a) an arm held rather high, elbow poking out, and b) often hit a rib, which has an impact on the one stabbing. To aim for the abdomen is a much more practical move (arm close to the body, little force needed), and someone with an abdominal wound, though he will not die on the spot, will be very busy dying - slowly and painfully - for some hours and not trying to stab you in the back. 
 
Then there is also the question of the protective armour of an enemy. When it comes to fighting a fully equipped legionary, I'd prefer to use my Norman sword and aim either for the arteria femoralis or the throat. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gabrielecampbell>gabriele campbell</A> at: 7/18/04 12:06 pm

ambrosius · 07-18-2004, 10:17 PM

Both Gaius's doctor and Gabriele are right. 
 
Legionaries were taught to aim for the face or 
throat of an armoured enemy (such as in Rome's 
many civil-wars) to sever the spinal chord near 
the brain stem, causing instant death. 
 
But against unarmoured (barbarian) enemies, the 
preferred target was the heart. Though as Gabriele 
points out, aiming through the rib-cage may cause 
the blade to glance off the sternum or breastbone 
(who's job is to protect the heart anyway) or to 
get stuck between pairs of ribs. This latter scenario 
is a far more likely way for the blade to get stuck 
than suction due to blood (the assumed reason 
for 'blood-channels' on blades - which a Gladius 
does not have, anyway). 
 
So, as Gaius's doctor points out, the best way to 
target the heart is to aim just below the sternum 
(the highest part of the lower edge of the rib-cage) 
and push upwards. This way, you will either puncture 
the heart or sever one of the vessel attached to it, 
causing loss of blood-flow to the brain - almost as 
instant death as severing the brain stem. 
 
That's exactly what legionaries were taught to do. 
 
In fact, you could say (according to the Romans) 
that the way to a man's heart was through his 
stomach (but that doesn't involve food..........). 
 
Ambrosius

07-18-2004, 10:35 PM

OK, I'll get myself a gladus and practise this technique a bit. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gabrielecampbell>gabriele campbell</A> at: 7/19/04 12:37 am

Matthew Amt · 07-19-2004, 03:58 PM

Ambrosius, is there an ancient source that goes into such details about aiming points? I remember that most of what we say about Romans prefering to thrust rather than swing comes from Vegetius, but pretty much all he says is that they were contemptuous of people who used slashing or cutting attacks, and that skulls and other bones were natural armor. So I'm wondering where you came up with those details. 
 
As I understand it, we can show that the Romans knew that the belly was a good target. It is pretty clear that a couple inches of blade in a man's guts is generally incapacitating, no matter what it hits. A penetrating wound to the stomach or intestines means death by infection if the victim doesn't bleed out before that. Even a non-lethal strike to the belly may leave the victim open to a second or third blow, if he can't cover up with his shield REALLY quickly. And any wound to the face or neck is going to be dangerous without any threat to the spinal cord. 
 
Also, keep in mind that the gladius hispaniensis used during the Republic was DEFINITELY used for cutting, not just thrusting. The Macedonians in the 2nd century BC were shocked at how it lopped off arms and heads. Later, we have the skeletons of the defenders of Maiden Castle in Britain, killed by Romans in 43 AD, and their bones show clear cutting marks. 
 
I just had never heard before that the Romans were so specific in their training. Basically, what's your source? 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

ambrosius · 07-27-2004, 10:26 PM

Ave Matt, 
 
You guys keep posting while I'm away. I only read 
this yesterday. Leastwise, to answer your question, 
I'm affraid I don't have any ancient sources to pass 
on And due to shortage of time, I'll have to 
split this reply into two, with the second one to 
follow. But to begin on a frivolous note, I'll quote 
from 'Spartacus'. Now, it may only be 'Hollywood', 
but presumably they did their research. This is the 
scene in the gladiator-school in Capua, where the 
trainer, Marcellus, is using Spartacus as a model 
for training the other new-recruits about all the 
aiming-points on the body. He uses three colours 
of paint brushes to daub Kirk Douglas according 
to the severity of the wound in each location: 
 
"First rule: You get an instant-kill on the red. Here 
(the throat) and here (the heart). Always remember, 
go for the red first, because if you don't your 
opponent will. On the blue, you get a cripple. Here 
(the arms) and here (the legs). Second rule: Go for 
the cripple before the slow-kill. Here's the slow-kill 
on the yellow. Here (the stomach/abdomen). 
Remember, a slow kill may have enough left in him 
to kill you before he dies. With a cripple, you know 
you've got him if you keep your distance and wear 
him down." 
 
Now, the last sentence is only really relevant to gladiatorial combat, as they have time to dance 
around each other, mano y mano. But in battle, 
with two lines facing each other (and many ranks 
deep) only the first two aiming-points are relevant. You're going to go for the body/head, and then(depending on how accurate you are) you'll end 
up with either an instant or a slow-kill. 
 
As Gaius pointed out, the importance of being 
able to acheive an instant-kill cannot be over- 
estimated. If you're being ordered by your Centurio 
to kill the first rank of the enemy - quickly - and 
then advance over their bodies to engage the 
second, third & fourth etc, in quick succession, 
the last thing you need is for the squirming body 
you step over to place a well-aimed sword or 
knife into the tender, unarmoured area of your 
nether regions as you step over them. 
 
The way I see it, Romans weren't taught to kill 
instantly because they were compassionate, or 
to avoid suffering, they were taught to do it 
because it was the efficient way to win a battle. 
If you can use a well aimed thrust to inflict an 
instant-kill on the front rank of the enemy, then 
not only will they drop like a stone in front of you 
(allowing you to advance into the next rank) but 
you will have confidence in moving forwards, as 
nobody will be attacking you from beneath, while 
your attention is focussed on what's in front. 
 
In addition, if you and your buddies have only 
inflicted slow-kills on the enemy front rank, then 
once your own back rank have passed over them, 
you might have a dozen enemies popping back up 
behind you, and before you know it, a dozen of 
your own guys have got swords or spears in the 
back of their necks. In fact, I believe that Greek 
hoplites used a dedicated officer behind the back 
rank, who's job it was to use his sword on any 
of the enemy fallen who were still moving, to make 
sure this didn't happen. 
 
However, this would still be no use to you (in the 
front rank) if you were stepping over a 'live-one' 
before your second rank could finnish them off 
for you. Anyway, more to follow tomorrow. 
 
Salve.

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