08-22-2004, 05:28 AM
Theo,<br>
Assimilation was never seen as a big problem, the Goths were not one big happy tribe that trekked along in one big group, this is a picture which is not correct. Alaric sometimes commanded thousands, sure, but after some defeat many went their own ways and he would be left with a few hundred followers. Not all were Goths either, other tribes and even Roman citizens or slaves were to be found with the 'Gothic army'.<br>
Remember the 5500 cavalry that were 'drafted' from the defeated Sarmatians in 175? Bigger numbers had been entering the Empire, and assimilated successfully.<br>
<br>
What you say about 'Goths dominated the ranks and officer corp of the armies of the Western Empire into the 5th century'is not correct. The Goths did not belong to the regular army and such officers were individuals who had joined, they did not belong to Alaric's Goths. Nor were they ever present in such numbers that they dominated the army.<br>
<br>
Pompeius,<br>
I agree that Adrianople need not have happened, the Goths were treated abismally bad. But this was long forgotten after 400 I think, when the dynamics of the Gothic presence within the Empire had made them valuable allies, and all knew who depended on whom.<br>
I disagree about Christianity - the Goths were Arian Christians, so how would they be more 'motivated' than the Roman army? Christianity was sometimes a way to avoid the army (service was often impopular) but that was not accepted as a reason in most cases - you could be killed for refusing to serve. How's that for motivation? No, I doubt Christianity played the role advocated by Gibbon.<br>
<br>
Theo (back to you),<br>
the Empire, especially in the West, saw a sharp decline in urbanisation during the late 3rd and 4th centuries. Cities shrunk dramatically, which is witnessed by the new walls encosing a much smaller circuit.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Assimilation was never seen as a big problem, the Goths were not one big happy tribe that trekked along in one big group, this is a picture which is not correct. Alaric sometimes commanded thousands, sure, but after some defeat many went their own ways and he would be left with a few hundred followers. Not all were Goths either, other tribes and even Roman citizens or slaves were to be found with the 'Gothic army'.<br>
Remember the 5500 cavalry that were 'drafted' from the defeated Sarmatians in 175? Bigger numbers had been entering the Empire, and assimilated successfully.<br>
<br>
What you say about 'Goths dominated the ranks and officer corp of the armies of the Western Empire into the 5th century'is not correct. The Goths did not belong to the regular army and such officers were individuals who had joined, they did not belong to Alaric's Goths. Nor were they ever present in such numbers that they dominated the army.<br>
<br>
Pompeius,<br>
I agree that Adrianople need not have happened, the Goths were treated abismally bad. But this was long forgotten after 400 I think, when the dynamics of the Gothic presence within the Empire had made them valuable allies, and all knew who depended on whom.<br>
I disagree about Christianity - the Goths were Arian Christians, so how would they be more 'motivated' than the Roman army? Christianity was sometimes a way to avoid the army (service was often impopular) but that was not accepted as a reason in most cases - you could be killed for refusing to serve. How's that for motivation? No, I doubt Christianity played the role advocated by Gibbon.<br>
<br>
Theo (back to you),<br>
the Empire, especially in the West, saw a sharp decline in urbanisation during the late 3rd and 4th centuries. Cities shrunk dramatically, which is witnessed by the new walls encosing a much smaller circuit.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
