Mail

[Anonymous]

I was wondering if mail was word dry ? I was thinking that a light oil may stave of rust then I thought what would that do to the tuinic. then of course there is the subler-whatsit<br>
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Do you think they were oiled or waxed ?<br>
<br>
Conal <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!<br>
<br>
Yes, you definitely need a subarmalis under mail. The metal rings are just the outer layer of a 2-part defense, and the padding underneath forms the inner layer. It is crucial to the mail's function and protection.<br>
<br>
And yes, the subarmalis keeps your tunic cleaner, whether you're wearing mail or a lorica segmentata. There is some evidence for mail being tinned, but any that wasn't would be lightly oiled. Probably you'd give it a good rub-down with oily rags every morning and evening, same as you'd do for an untinned segmentata.<br>
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But yeah, even if you aren't marching in the rain, you have to do SOMEthing to avoid rust!<br>
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Vale,<br>
<br>
Matthew <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Subarmalis...padding under armor is essential for wearing armor, otherwise armor is useless...and even more heavy/sweaty/rusty.<br>
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That's why I think there is a leather subarmalis made more for maille armor than say Lor. Seggie. I'd think the oil from the maille would help benefit the leather padding and vice versa, and the leather won't get torn up like linen et.al. would. But there isn't much in terms of archaeological evidence to support my thoughts on that, unfortunately.<br>
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either way, you want good, comfortable padding for your maille armor. <p>-ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re<br>
<br>
www.higgins.org </p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

When ever I finish my shirt of lorica hamata I'll need to make a new subarmalis. What would be more appropriate, all linen, all leather, or linen with leather pteruges? I've seen illustrations showing the pteruges on just the sleeves and also around the legs. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Why would the subarmalis need to be leather? Medieval mail functioned fine with cloth gambseons/aketons. <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

There is evidence that the Greeks and Etruscans wore padded cloth garments in conjunction with scale defenses and of course, the medievals definitely used it with their mail. Therefore, there is anecdotal evidence the Romans did too. Padded linen or hemp is incredibly more comfortable than leather. Why leather? What evidence is there the Romans even favored leather as a material? I have seen a Roman paenula of leather, but this was apparently an outer garment for repelling rain. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Oh hey...I never thought of that!<br>
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Actually one of the guys I know who does Burgundian Man-At-Arms wears an arming coat with leather strips all along the chest, back and sleeves to help prevent the armor and maille from tearing up the fabric too much. Another friend who will occassionally wear full plate high-gothic harness doesn't have leather on his coat yet, his maille sections between the plate joints are still being constructed, although he hasn't had as much problem with his gembeson being torn up as much as the Burgundian guy...I guess it really comes down to the individual armor and abuse.<br>
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Since the above is plate and maille armor, there usually isn't as much as a need for leather, only on the maille areas and plate joints to help reinforce. The plate armor (such as the Cuirass) doesn't need leather down the sternum/front end, as there isn't much friction there to wear the coat....But since we're talking Roman armor, with short sleeves, and all around the torso, I'm sure you'd need more leather to help reduce wear on the subarmalis, esspecially around the arm/armpits and waist, that's where the armor is going to be flexing and moving the most...The Pterges help protect the arms/shoulders/pits areas as well as it's decorative function (IMHO)<br>
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As I said before, the leather will help prevent some moisture/sweat from seeping through as a wool gambeson will.<br>
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The other problem I've found wil an all-fabric [subarmalis] is when I put on my Lor.Seggie, the front seam where the girdle plates meet will always bunch up with the subarmalis, and I'm constantly having to stuff it back and pinching my fingers between the plates - perhaps I need a tighter fitting sub, but I'd have a tough time getting it on...Leather isn't as bunchy as fabric, so that would probably help there. Throwing on a Hammata/Maille armor I could see the same bunching problem, but horizontally..? <p>-ANDY ~ Your Friendly Neighborhood Roman Dude.<br>
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Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re (Soft in Manner, Strong in Deed)<br>
<br>
www.higgins.org </p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Aha! A leather advocate. I have worn leather with mail and in a hot climate it is unbearable. Leather does not breath and you sweat and sweat. In time, the leather gets dry with salt and sweat. Additionally, it doesn't really provide much backing for the mail. It may work with a segmentata, but you can achieve the same effect by wearing an extra tunic.<br>
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A non-tear fabric like hemp is ideal. My subarmalis is made of a course hemp on the outside and a fine hemp on the inside, with a wool filler. The mail goes on and comes off like it was greased. Not so with leather. The inner layer of hemp feels like silk and the outer layer is tough and tear resistant. It breaths and is cool in the heat and warm in the cold. Additionally, the wool padding eases the "bite" of the mail. You just don't feel it. Until I got my hemp subarmalis, I couldn't stand to wear my hamata for very long. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hemp is magical stuff. Today we don't appreciate the advantages of natural fibres. Once you use hemp and linen you'll forget all that leather nonsense. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 8/11/04 12:12 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

and particularly without raising the suspicions of the attorities who might confuse hemp with some other illegal weed? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

It is the same stuff. Some hemp has higher concentrations of THC than others. It is legal to grow low-THC hemp but you need a permit in most places. <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Try www.ecolution.com/ and you can find a variety of twines, fabrics and webbing for sale. I have never bought anything from them. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ok, course on the outside and fine on the inside, but which varieties as shown here:<br>
<br>
www.ecolution.com/product...abrics.asp<br>
<br>
would you use on a subarmalis, particularly one used under hamata? And I have to ask, what if any, is the evidence for the use of hemp as under armour padding by the romans? <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Mine is made of two types: a finely woven type on the inside and a courser type on the outside. It is quilted, similar to that shown on Greek and Etruscan pottery, with a wool filler. I have a hemp tunic also, which is devine to wear-no itching and scratching. I can send you the plans if you give me your email address.<br>
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Hemp is as old as the hills. I know of no Roman examples of hemp, but I recall talking to some German folks who did. The evidence for its use is anecdotal. We know lots of cultures had it contemporary with the Romans.<br>
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My argument for its use is that it is so darn good. It is an ancient fabric with space age qualities. Tough, soft, tear resistant, breathes, it doesn't dry rot or wet rot easily, etc, etc. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Either post your plans into the file section of:<br>
<br>
groups.yahoo.com/group/legio30cohort2/<br>
or e-mail them to me. My e-mal address is public (click on Neuralmancer and it should show up). <p></p><i></i>