Did the Romans ever use war-chariots ?

[Anonymous]

I've read every primary source I can find. I was hoping you could supply the one which indicates that the riders jumped out after charging their chariots towards the enemy. I must have missed that one. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 8/14/04 12:21 am<br></i>

[Nathan Ross]

The Xenophon quote above seems to indicate that this jumping out of the chariot stuff was a habit of cowardly or inefficient drivers rather than a deliberate tactic - unless the idea was that the horses veered off at the enemy line and raked the front ranks with the scythes. I believe I've seen this in a movie, but how well it would work in reality I don't know - also, the driver would have to jump out quite a distance from the enemy line to stand any chance of survival - if he wanted to save his own skin he'd be better off just turning the chariot and using it to make a quick getaway...<br>
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The best account I know of Romans v Chariots is this one, from Plutarch's 'Life of Sulla', describing the battle of Chaeroneia in 86BC - (possibly the last recorded use of scythed chariots in battle?):<br>
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>For Sulla promptly charged upon them while they were in confusion, and by abridging the space between the armies with the speed of his approach, robbed the scythe-bearing chariots of their efficiency. For these are of most avail after a long course, which gives them velocity and impetus for breaking through an opposing line. But short starts are ineffectual and feeble, as in the case of missile which do not get full propulsion. And this proved to be true now in the case of Barbarians. The first of their chariots were driven along feebly and engaged sluggishly, so that the Romans, after repulsing them, clapped their hands and laughed and called for more, as they are wont to do at the races in the circus.<hr><br>
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Which suggests that driving the chariot full tilt against the enemy line was the preferred tactic - my guess is that the relative flexibility of the Roman formation allowed them to stay clear of the slower-moving vehicles, and thus defeat them. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Regarding Xenophon's account, I'm thinking that the chariots were empty by the time they reached the phalanx because the riders had been neutralised by the javelins of the peltasts. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

No, Dan, I didn't say that Xenophon was uniquely unbiased; all I said was that he was an eye-witness. You asked for a source for the drivers "bailing out"; I supplied one. I'm sure Nathan's right that the passage in question implies this was a failure, not a deliberate tactic (not deliberate on the part of the general, that is; quite deliberate on the part of the drivers); I'm equally sure that this passage is the origin of the idea Perry retails that "bailing out" was a deliberate tactic. A charge at speed against a solid line was close to a sucicide tactic; no wonder some drivers bottled out.<br>
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Your suggestion that the scythed chariots at Kounaxa were shot down by the peltasts is interesting but I don't think it works. First, I am not sure that Xenophon would want to play down the achievements of the peltasts; he plays them up later in the work when the peltasts are under his command, and there is even suspicion that he exaggerated their success against Tissaphernes' cavalry - Tarn's idea that the peltasts didn't deliberately open ranks but got ridden down.<br>
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Second, the cavalry charge was not "after the death of Cyrus", although that is the point in the narrative where Xenophon tells it, but in the opening stages of the battle - that is, roughly at the same time as the chariot charge: "For Tissaphernes had not taken to flight in the first encounter, but had charged along the river through the Greek peltasts...." The peltasts therefore weren't in position to receive the cavalry charge, and if they had been it makes it even less likely that Xenophon should have stressed one of two near-simultaneous successes and ignored the other.<br>
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What may be worth looking at, though, is the possibility that some of the chariots were indeed shot down, but by the Cretan archers. In the same passage as the chariot-charge we learn that someone was in the vicinity of the Greek phalanx shooting arrows at Artaxerxes' troops:<br>
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"And before an arrow reached them, the barbarians broke and fled. Thereupon the Greeks pursued with all their might, but shouted meanwhile to one another not to run at a headlong pace, but to keep their ranks in the pursuit. As for the enemy's chariots, some of them plunged through the lines of their own troops, others, however, through the Greek lines, but without charioteers."<br>
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The only people likely to be shooting arrows at the enemy opposite the Greeks are surely the Greeks' own archers, the 200 or so Cretans. So maybe they shot down some of the chariot-drivers, too? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

That is certainly possible. I was comparing the use of peltasts against Cyrus' chariotry with the use of the Agrianian javelineers against Darius' chariots. It does seem clear that lightly armed, open formations of skirmishers can defeat heavy chariotry more easily than heavy infantry.<br>
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Edit: The amount of armour worn by charioteers would be sufficient to resist most bow shots - especially the indirect shots of infantry archers - but not a thrown javelin. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 9/1/04 1:16 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

The Metropolitan Museum in New York has a very beautiful chariot, entirely plated with embossed bronze and dating from the etruscan period (6th C.B.C.)<br>
I doubt however that it was used in warfare as a weapon, although it may have been used --obviously by a leader-- to ride to battle and show off in front of the troops before the actual fighting began.[url=http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?dep=13&zoomFlag=1&viewmode=0&item=03%2E23%2E1" target="top]www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?dep=13&zoomFlag=1&viewmode=0&item=03%2E23%2E1[/url] <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 8/30/04 2:28 pm<br></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

There's a beautiful example of a Roman light chariot in the Vatican museum. It was not armored so I doubt it was a war chariot, however -- it was gorgeous though. I'll post a pic when I get a chance.

Is there a group out there that has reconstructed a chariot based on this find ?

I still haven't seen a picture of it, unless it's that Etruscan one posted above :roll:

[Arthes]

Greetings,

There's a beautiful example of a Roman light chariot in the Vatican museum. It was not armored so I doubt it was a war chariot, however -- it was gorgeous though. I'll post a pic when I get a chance.

Is there a group out there that has reconstructed a chariot based on this find ?

I still haven't seen a picture of it, unless it's that Etruscan one posted above :roll:

Interesting to see that the Etruscan chariot has scenes from Greek history representing Archilles and was found with other Greek artifacts which also supports the theory that the Etruscans/Eturians originated from Greece or Macedonia.
These guys do chariot racing...[url:efnrecg3]http://www.thedevilshorsemen.com/roman.htm[/url]
and here is Maximus Decimus Meridius driving one in Jerash...... //img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/Alfrina/Late%20Roman%20cavalry/MDM.jpg[/img] from [url:efnrecg3]http://www.jerashchariots.com/[/url]
regards
Arthes

[Theodosius the Great]

Thanks for the pics, Arthes.

I remember that group/company in Jordan, but I'm not sure how well researched their equipment is given that they're in part controlled by the tourism industry.

[hoplite14gr]

I think the Romans used war-wagons with skythes against Pyrros elephants not chariots.
Skythed chariots can be defeated by spearmen or pikemen like normal cavalry. Sit tight poke with pike or spear and the horses who have more brains than the riders will refuse to charge. Never horsemen got through unshaken steady infantry.
Skythed chariots are described in a Byzantine manual at the time of the Comnenan dynasty but never used in combat. (If you consider 11 century Byzantines Romans, that is)
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Arthes]

Greetings,
There seems to be a general opinion that Cyrus the Younger used scythed chariots in battle...as depicted in 'Alexander' and 'Gladiator' arena scene.
There is also the tradition in Britain that Boudicca's warriors used scythed chariots...although none have yet been found.
Given the similarity in name to Scythian....Scythian chariots or driven by Scythians maybe....or does the 'Scyth' come from their beheadings :lol:
Interesting article here about a horse drawn beasty known as Maxim .....[url:oxscz2y1]http://www.tutorgig.co.uk/ed/tachanka[/url]
regards
Arthes

[hoplite14gr]

Persians used chariots at Cunaxa - Xenophons eywittnes account- and at Gaugamela (or Arbela) against Alexander. Both cases were a flop for the Persians. According to the Greeks Skythe originated from a son of Ares named Scythes. As for etymology I need some research.
As for how terrible they were read my post at "buttered Skythians".
Nice link too. I saw an example in the Russian War Meuseum. Easy to eliminate with grenades.
Kind regards
Stefanos