Centurions Wearing Lorica Segmentata...?

[Narukami]

A question for the Group Mind:

Did Centurions every wear lorica segmentata?

I have looked in the "usual suspects" (Connoly, Rankov, etc) and if the reference is there I have missed it.

The reason for this question is simple: My grandson wants to be a Centurion for Halloween this year. (Last year it was Commander Cody.) Having limited resources, time and talent, I have found a ready made costume with a reasonable helmet and a simulation of segmented armor that is not too bad. However, I have never seen a Centurion depicted in segmented armor.

So I throw it out for your opinions: A Centurion in Lorica Sementata? With his medals?

I know that anything is possible and that the unknowns about the Roman army far exceed what we know for certain, but is this a plausible uniform for a Centurion?

How about a Centurion of the Praetorian Guard?

Thanks for your help.

:oops: :? wink:

Narukami

[jvrjenivs]

For a centurion of the pretiorian guard, I would say NO. As it seems to me that the Praetorians are full of traditions. (They also stay by the old scutum fashion, when normal legionairies getting more square ones)

But for normal centurios I would say they probably would. I mean, there is invented a new piece of armor. Who would be the first to wear such a piece of kit? I would say a centurio could do. Of course we have no sources for this.

Another way to talk it 'right' is that it's a just promoted optio, which is used to his seg.

I've seen some german groups using phalarae on segementata, and it's possible, but I didn't like the look. They look better on a hamata, squamata or plumata, in my opinion. But, who am I?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I would agree with that assessment on a battlefield promotion.
You would not suddenly change kit in the middle of a campaign, except perhaps the tranverse crest.

An interesting point on the Guard scuta Jurjen, as I notice in the relief the have round umbos on the scuta....but that is another topic.

[Marcus Mummius]

This has been discussed several times before

You can use the search funtion to find several threads.

Some examples:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... segmentata

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... segmentata

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... segmentata

[Narukami]

Thank you gentlemen.

Good point about the Guard being tradition bound -- they might be the last to change over.

I do agree that the awards do not look as good on segmented armor.

And Marcus -- my apologies, you are quite right. I should have conducted a search first. There is some excellent information there.

Thanks again.

:wink:

Narukami

[Magnus]

Hey Jurjen, any links to pics of that German group's centurion with the phalerae? I'll have to be going that road with my impression as well...

[Paullus Scipio]

Jurjen wrote:

For a centurion of the pretiorian guard, I would say NO. As it seems to me that the Praetorians are full of traditions. (They also stay by the old scutum fashion, when normal legionairies getting more square ones)

Whilst I would agree generally with Jurjen, and others, that the plain fact is, we just don't know, a cautionary note should sounded here about conclusions drawn from a couple of sculptures, say, as here.
The sculptures here in question are a relief from the Louvre (circa 50-60 A.D.) which shows Praetorians in high relief carrying 'old style' republican oval shields, and wearing 'old style'crested 'Attic' helmets, but as Byron has pointed out they seem to have'modern' circular bosses on their shields, and the shields themselves are too small compared to actual examples of republican shields. ( but we can't even be sure of this since sculptors habitually made shields smaller than they really were to avoid obscuring the figures too much - see Trajan's column, for example)

The Authenticity Police of those times would surely have disapproved !!

ALL the men seem to be wearing 'muscled cuirasses', some covered up. However, this sculpture is heavily restored since being unearthed. All the heads for example are based on the only surviving head....the low relief one in the background. There are at least three shield designs depicted, possibly four. One possible interpretation is that the High Relief three figures who obviously wear 'muscled cuirasses' are 'officers' - centurions or above, and whose original helmets may have had transverse crests. ( impossible to say since the original heads did not survive). The different shield designs MAY indicate different cohorts, and the figures in 'muscled cuirasses' Cohort Commanders but one suspects that 'modern' restoration may, as with the helmets, be at work.

The second sculpture is called the Cancellaria relief. It is in excellent condition and intact, because it dates from around the end of Domitian's reign, but was never used because he was assassinated.This would date it to c. 96 A.D.
It shows Praetorians in 'undress' i.e. with no armour or helmet, but armed.
The shield patterns here are the same as one another, and the shields are again 'old fashioned' Republican oval types, again smaller than the originals on which they are based but the one visible boss seems to the correct 'barleycorn' type ( which throws suspicion of 'restoration' on the Louvre example).
Unfortunately for the hypothesis that Praetorians wore 'Traditional Old Fashioned gear', the next depictions of them, from the reign of Trajan, show them in the Dacian Wars (AD 101-102,105-106) wearing the 'latest' styles of equipment, including Helmets and rectangular Shields, just a few years after the Cancellaria relief! ( see Trajan's Column, The Adamklissi metopes etc)

Because of this, Peter Connolly hypothesised that Praetorians wore 'Traditional' gear on Parade in Rome, but the latest equipment for Battle. ( though other explanations are possible)

For a modern example of this, see the British Queen's Guards Regiments, who wear 'old fashioned' Bearskins and Red Jackets ( though again the Authenticity Police would disapprove...the uniforms are of a modern cut, rather than historical! ) for ceremonial duties in London, but the latest battle kit in the field........

As you see, therefore, we don't have that much evidence and what we do have is riddled with uncertainty, sometimes inaccurate in itself, and sometimes contradictory!!

We also have very few depictions of Centurions from any period ( just a few tombstones), so no-one can say at all whether Centurions wore 'segmentata' or not....all one can say is that no clear depiction of a Centurion wearing one has yet come to light.....

No-one therefore could criticise fairly a depiction of a Centurion in segmentata......

[Narukami]

Good points Paul.

Thanks!

:wink:

Narukami

[jvrjenivs]

Hey Jurjen, any links to pics of that German group's centurion with the phalerae? I'll have to be going that road with my impression as well...

Did I said it was the centurio. It's the signifer. But it's still phalerae on segmentata. I've found one picture of it.

[Marcus Mummius]

I thought you were talking about him (the 210cm/7 feet tall Roman wearing a grizzly bear pelt).

[Magnus]

Very cool. I don't think they look that bad, though I'd like to see how it looks closer to the top where the shoulder guard plates hang down...

[Tita Iuventia Martia]

Salvete,
this is interesting topic. I have been thinking about centurions in lorica segmentata for a long time and I am not sure about it yet ;-) another possibility is that he could have chosen that type, which suited him but these are only my speculations.

Main problem, IMO is that we have a lot of evidences that centurions wore squamata, hamata and plumata and sometimes also musculata (by praetorians centurions or by primi ordines centurions) but no segmentata. We can see lots of pictures of tomb stones, reliefs etc. with centurions in hamata or squamata or plumata and it is evidence for us about using these types by centurions. So we are mainly using these types for our impressions. I also have seen a picture (photo), where is an auxiliary centurio in segmentata, but I do not know, where it was :-( ( It is about our personality preferences, which armour we prefere, but hamata / squamata / plumata is more historic than segmentata for centurions.

vale and regards

[Tita Iuventia Martia]

For instance: our centurio uses segmentata armour, sometimes also hamata with doubler but hamata does not fit him (its size seems a bit smaller than before) ;-) -) )

vale

[Peroni]

I also have seen a picture (photo), where is an auxiliary centurio in segmentata, but I do not know, where it was :wink:

One particular find site is at Delwijnen-Eendenkade, where, in addition to a diploma fragment from Britannia (RMD-03, 00151), sixty items of military equipment were found. The military equipment included twenty-two cupric alloy components from segmented plate armour, and two fragments of iron plate, one with a hinged buckle attached, mostly of the Corbridge type cuirass which Dr. Johan Nicolay suggests had probably been fully intact at the time of deposition. The date given on the diploma (AD98 – 117, probably ante AD114) would fit perfectly with a Corbridge type cuirass suggesting that the soldier – (a Batavian auxiliary soldier from the information on the diploma), deposited this armour and equipment on his safe return home. This combined evidence would strongly suggest that the cuirass belonged to the Batavian soldier.

Another diploma fragment found at Elst-Lijnden was issued on the 20th February 98AD. (RMD-04 00216) This diploma was issued to a certain ‘Gaveri(us)’ - a Batavian trooper of ala I Batavorvm. If, as the discharge diploma suggests, he fulfilled his 25 years service it means that he joined the army in 73, shortly after Vespasian re-constituted the five Batavian ‘one-thousand strong’ milliaria units. He must have been one of the first Batavians after the revolt to attain a Roman citizenship diploma. The associated finds of segmented armour seem very unusual for a cavalryman to have in his possession, (unless it was armour of the type depicted on a cavalryman at Arlon wherein the rider is wearing what appears to be a mail/plate hybrid cuirass with shoulder sections of segmented plate)

[PhilusEstilius]

I was a little surprised one time to find that on the Trajan Collumn we find that the Emperor Trajan even wore a Lorica Segmentata.