Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
need help with costumes!
#1
Hi There. I am reaching out to all of you because I need some help with accurately depicting Roman military costumes for a play I am designing. Like many of you have expressed in threads, I too, dislike when people design things without research or without consulting others who know. I have done some historical research but still have my doubts about times. I am designing for Caesar & Cleopatra. this play takes place on the syrian border of egypt towards the end of the xxiii dynasty, in roman yr of 706 and in christian computation of 48bc. according to the play it would have made caesar around 50yrs.
only once in the play is he seen in complete combat gear, which may have some particularities bc of his status or rank? but from what i can tell, he would never always be in the combat gear, if just eating dinner or everyday. there are several auxiliaries and centurian? but they are guarding the palace of cleopatra and they would be in military gear...
i guess my biggest question is, does anyone have any advice on how to accurately display the costumes, what do the leather armbands mean? i found the helmet database on here but was quite confused as to which would have been the one that they may have worn..or if that is by rank? was ranks depicted differently? and as for torso amour, the diff ? i think they would have worn kalkriese armour. but then there is the lorica hamata and squamata...so i am pretty confused!
thank you so much for all your help in advance..i am working on my drawings for the costumes, and i hopefully , with all of your help, can make something incredibly accurate!
Reply
#2
Are on my toga page:

[url:3pui8qwn]http://www.geocities.com/legio_tricesima_cohors_tres/vestitus/VestitusRomani.html[/url]

If you're in the USA, please visit Roman Days at GMU (Fairfax, VA) on Sept. 26-28. You'll see many accurate reenactors there.


Also, as far as I know, the leather arm bands is a hollywoodism.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
Reply
#3
Lorica hamata for sure, Kalkriese segmentata probably not. There's a book in German called Helme in Caesars Heer. It gives the lowdown on what helmets would have been worn in that period, with photos. Highly recommended is Graham Sumner's Roman Military Clothing Vol.1, which touches into Caesar's and Augustan periods. Graham's a member here, and may be able to give plenty of advice. His book (published by Osprey) shows military men in off-duty gear aplenty, and I think would be a great visual resource for you.

A taster of RMC 1 HERE

BTW, you need to put your real name (or part of) into your official signature, to be found in your Profile settings.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#4
Not sure what kind of helmet he'd have worn, though...probably not the standard Montefortino, what about an Attic with a crest?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#5
The Montefortino lasted a long time, well into the 1st century. Hamata with a pair of belts, one for a dagger and the second for the gladius is definitely appropriate. Soldiers, even when off duty, were known for three things: their footwear, caligae, the scarf, focale, and their distinctive belts with the apron.

Caesar would certainly have worn musculata with pteruges. His boots would of been different as well. Class distinctions were illustrated by the kind of boots romans wore. Even the colors varied with social class.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
Reply
#6
Caesar might have worn musculata, but in a battle, he might have worn more practical armor, as he sometimes actually took a shield and got in the mix a bit, if his Commentaries are accurate.

Plumata? Squamata? Hamata? Hard to say. Either way, the scales can be made for stage from nothing more complicated than poster board and "gold" mylar bumper sticker material. Cut the bazillion scales, and sew them onto a "vest" of sorts made from fairly rigid cloth, or a close-fitting shirt. It's theatre, not reenactment...you don't need scales with six holes in each, overlapping two directions made of brass, sewn or wired to a linen base.

He was known for wearing a long sleeved red tunic, though, modelled after the Gauls he was fighting in his famous conquest. That might be hard to sell to a stage audience, though, and I doubt he wore long sleeves in Egypt, as there wasn't such a need to keep warm most of the time.

What about (for the non-battle gear) belts and such as described well by Neuraleanus, with a paenula of lightweight, but elegant cloth? Easy enough to work that out (and it covers the back, so the scale armor only really has to come around the sides, and doesn't have to be on the back at all. Your costumer will be glad of that!

I've used red cotton flannel for capes and such, since the cloth is matte, it looks more like it should. I sewed a string into the hem, with fishing weights (split shot) every few inches. That added weight to the cloth, and made for nice, swishing movements when the actor turned or moved around. Gives the illusion of a heavy cloth, without the expense. The non-cotton flannels are too stiff to drape correctly.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#7
Quote:Also, as far as I know, the leather arm bands is a hollywoodism.

Partly it is. Some sources depict 'arm bands' but these are probably just leather straps wrapped around the arm. As I saw in my re-enactment activities, I always need some more leather straps to fix one for my helmet, armour, etc. it also support your wrist, when wrapped cerfully. I would say leather arm bands are wrong for legionairies. Use leather straps wrapped around your arm.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
Reply
#8
Montefortino and Mannheim types of helmet.
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

Caesar's long-sleeved tunic is only translated as scarlet, not red IIRC. In those days, apparently scarlet could mean any bright colour, not red specifically like today.

Not sure two belts would be worn for this time. I'd have thought it would still only be the single belt of plain plate decoration, the dual belts beginning to be worn later (Augustan)? No apron hanging from a belt, either.

here's a nice late Republican musculata:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 533#133533
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#9
Ave!

Your One-Shop-Stopping-Place:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/

(Well, not shopping THERE, actually, but there is a big page of Suppliers!)

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/stage.html

How to do it all for a little less money.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/orgoff.html#legatus

Even has a picture of Caesar himself. There's no need to theorize about "more practical" armor for him for battle, since a good bronze musculata would be perfectly good protection without inhibiting movement. Pretty safe to say that Caesar could afford a good one! I'd go with an Attic helmet for him, since that's the Hellenistic norm.

For the legionaries, hamata and Montefortino helmet would be common,

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/Mont1.jpg

Plus one belt (no apron) for the sword and dagger, pila, and Republican-style scutum:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/repscuta.jpg

Auxiliaries were not a regularized force at this time, so don't let Trajan's Column influence your thinking. Gallic cavalry or infantry, for instance, probably looked a lot like Gauls!

Quote:Caesar's long-sleeved tunic is only translated as scarlet, not red IIRC. In those days, apparently scarlet could mean any bright colour, not red specifically like today.

Thank you! Yes, beware of translations. We had a discussion about this passage not long ago, and I actually don't remember any reference in it to color at all, but the old mind is going... There IS a reference in the siege of Alesia to his troops recognizing him at a distance by his distinctively-colored cloak, but again that does not say red even though it is often translated as such. Note, neither of these passages rules out red, so for your purposes it's fine!

Try to avoid making Cleopatra look like Nefertiti. While much of the ancient royal regalia was still in use for formal displays, Cleopatra herself was part Pontic, part Macedonian, part other things, but no Egyptian blood at all, as I understand. Day to day fashions in Egypt were probably very heavily influenced by Hellenistic styles, like the rest of that end of the world.

Quote:Some sources depict 'arm bands' but these are probably just leather straps wrapped around the arm.

On *soldiers*?? That's news to me! I've NEVER seen anything on a depiction of a Roman soldier's wrist other than small bracelets, and those are hardly universal! Are you thinking of gladiators? Basically, if you want to be accurate, don't put anything on a legionary's wrists or forearms.

The big problem will be making stage gear which looks good! Coolus and Attic helmets might be easier to come up with using plastic toy helmets, and they'll still be fine for this era. If you really want something that looks like armor, there are several options for mail, but you might decide that helmets and shields are enough for your soldiers--and that was probably more common than we like to think, especially just for guard duty. Scale armor can be done by drawing scales on metallic fabric. A lot depends on how realistic you want to be, how much your actors will put up with (not to mention your costuming department!), and how much you want to SPEND.

Good luck and Vale,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#10
Quote:The big problem will be making stage gear which looks good! Coolus and Attic helmets might be easier to come up with using plastic toy helmets, and they'll still be fine for this era. If you really want something that looks like armor, there are several options for mail, but you might decide that helmets and shields are enough for your soldiers--and that was probably more common than we like to think, especially just for guard duty. Scale armor can be done by drawing scales on metallic fabric. A lot depends on how realistic you want to be, how much your actors will put up with (not to mention your costuming department!), and how much you want to SPEND.

Good advice Matthew in particular the latter! Theatre audiences are probably far more used to seeing 'Roman' dress as anything from contemporary clothing to a sheet wrapped around the body, than perhaps what a movie audience would expect to see.

I presume the play is the G.B. Shaw version? Both Caesar and his soldiers and just arrived in Egypt after a very hard campaign in Greece. The costumes could reflect this.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Reply
#11
Quote:Gallic cavalry or infantry, for instance, probably looked a lot like Gauls!
You figure.... :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#12
Right, GJC, and I'll bet their sculptures were sculpted, too! :lol: :roll:
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#13
Quote:Quote:
Gallic cavalry or infantry, for instance, probably looked a lot like Gauls!
You figure....

Actually he meant to put ir there not au! Big Grin
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Reply
#14
German horsemen acompanied Ceasar -something like a "bodyguard".
Plus he mentions Cretan archers.
Cretan headband or tall blond "barbarians" flanking a Roma might capture the eye of the audience.

Kind regards
Reply


Forum Jump: