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The Votadini exodus to Wales
#10
There are lots of theories surrounding the Cunedag (Cunedda) migration, if that’s what indeed it was. If the sources are correct then he/they didn’t simply travel from Manau Goutodin to North Wales but fought battles at Durham and Carlisle on the way. Who they fought at these two places is anybody’s guess: raiding Angles at Durham, Scotti at Carlisle or simply in-fighting? This information does come form Llyf Taliesin and the Death Song of Cunedda, so it’s hard to know if it’s original. To quote from the Celtic Twilight website:

Quote:Sir Ifor Williams believed this poem to be a ninth or tenth-century pseudo-archaic fraud; but more recently R.G. Gruffudd and John Koch have both argued that it should be considered a genuine Northern British elegy. Gruffudd believes that 'it reads in fact like a North British poem composed shortly after Cunedda's death (there is no reference to his exploits in North Wales)'. Koch has noted that Cunedda's enemies appear to have been the Roman-fortified towns south of the Wall and that amongst his followers appear to be the men of Bernicia. A later pseudo-archaic fraud would also likely have an overtly Christian tone as in Marwnad Owain, which is also attributed to the historical sixth-century Taliesin.

It’s also important to remember that he was supposedly from Manau Goutodin (Manaw Gododdin) too, which is identified as the area around the Firth of the Fourth and north of the Antonine Wall, not Hadrian’s. It should not be seen as encompassing the same larger area as the Votadini are thought to have done.

As to who sent him south and why, well, that depends on exactly when it happened and there’s still no consensus as to when that was... if it actually happened. It’s anywhere between 383 and 440. The historian Wade-Evans believes the following:

Quote:Directed by Stilicho, Cunedda assembled forces and diver elements, mostly British... [who] congregated around Carlisle... Their objective in coming was to turn out the recent intruders from Ireland (not, of course, the Irish of old standing), which they would seem to have accomplished with great effect.

The earlier arrival date in northwest Wales would mean that it was probably Maximus that invited him. Others believe the request came from Vortigern after Maximus took the Segontium legions with him and as Robert knows from the articles of August Hunt at Vortigern Studies he argues that Cunedag could have been the Vortigern. He also argues that he was Irish, and that’s not a mad as it sounds as there’s more chance this area was aided by Irish mercenaries and there’s the grave of Cunorix at Viriconium (c475) that may be proof of this.

Although Cunedag is associated with North Wales now, he was supposed to have rid the Britons of the Irish in the southwest of Wales too. In fact the only evidence of his name is the hill of Allt Cunedda in St. Ishmael's Parish, south east Dyfed, north of Kidwelly.

The whole getting rid of the Irish is a complex argument, because it appears, as Wade-Evans argued, that there were both native or long settled Goidelic speakers on the western seaboard as well as Irish raiders in the form of Scotti, Lein and Desi. This could be why it looks like he didn’t rid the Irish from Wales, where as he did but left the Goidelic natives alone and these were later driven out, or/and Brythonifide by Cadwallon Long Hand. Of course, there could have been more raids and settlements after Cunedag’s death to explain this.

There’s also the possibility that he wasn’t from Manau Goutodin at all but had been on a campaign there and was from further south and perhaps even a commander at the Wall. He could have been from Britannia Prima originally and was simply coming ‘home’. There’s no archaeological evidence that another culture was imposed on North Wales, which many believe should have been the case. However, if we’re talking a military campaign and not a migration there wouldn’t be any evidence.
Arturus Uriconium
a.k.a Mak Wilson
May the horse be with you!
[url:17bayn0a]http://www.makltd.biz[/url]
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Messages In This Thread
The Votadini exodus to Wales - by romanonick - 09-15-2008, 11:28 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 09-16-2008, 04:50 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Caturiga - 09-16-2008, 02:54 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 09-22-2008, 04:40 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 09-23-2008, 03:50 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 09-26-2008, 05:58 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Arturus Uriconium - 12-31-2008, 02:48 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 03-28-2009, 07:15 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by fasta - 03-29-2009, 12:11 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by fasta - 03-29-2009, 12:27 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by fasta - 03-29-2009, 02:37 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by fasta - 03-29-2009, 05:05 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by fasta - 03-29-2009, 05:46 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Agraes - 03-29-2009, 08:56 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by fasta - 03-30-2009, 12:54 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 03-31-2009, 01:08 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by dux bellum - 04-21-2009, 09:28 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 07-13-2009, 03:16 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 07-19-2009, 04:37 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Ron Andrea - 08-13-2009, 06:21 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Ron Andrea - 08-13-2009, 07:31 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Ron Andrea - 08-13-2009, 08:07 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Caturiga - 08-14-2009, 08:55 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 08-15-2009, 03:29 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Caturiga - 08-15-2009, 09:33 PM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by Alanus - 08-16-2009, 08:00 AM
Re: The Votadini exodus to Wales - by romanonick - 08-19-2009, 12:56 AM

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