The Votadini exodus to Wales

[Arturus Uriconium]

That's difficult to say. What constitutes a 'dragon' and what a 'mythical monster'? Aren't there Celtic legends with dragons that can hardly be attributed to the Romans? I assume that 'dragons' are culturally pre-Roman in Europe.

If my memory serves me right from research I did for a TV show, apart from China the dragon first appears in Mesopotamia and also Egypt. It is a creature found throughout the world in its various forms. In some cultures it may have borrowed a form from others, but it was probably there as an unseen entity to explain such natural occurrences as thunderstorms as well as the spread of deceases. So whilst the British may not have had a visual representation of the creature until the Romans arrived they very well could have had it in their mythology.

Mak

[fasta]

That's pretty much what I thought.If you go along the lines that such creatures are based on fact which has been distorted over many centuries you can find large reptiles in the East.

It's harder to prove that in this case.An entity or unkown force of nature could be represented by any 'local' aminal.But by the Iron Age (if not pre-Bronze age) we are looking at the general acceptance of human like deities like the cultures of mainland europe.These seem to be associated with tribes. General gods(often used for natural events) are shared but tribal gods seem to be linked with 'their' people. So the question is why would they continue to use a older form of life force,if they did.

There just isn't the evidence to say the idea of Dragons being pre-Roman but I'm open to new proof.

But if I ever meet one and survive I'll let you know :wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

.There just isn't the evidence to say the idea of Dragons being pre-Roman but I'm open to new proof.

Do you mean in Britain?

[fasta]

Yes in Britain.Sorry if my last post wasn't clear.

[Arturus Uriconium]

It's worth noting that some kinds of dragons, such as the Germanic worm/wyrm/wurm, derive from the serpent and not from the larger Middle Eastern reptiles.

[fasta]

It's worth noting that some kinds of dragons, such as the Germanic worm/wyrm/wurm, derive from the serpent and not from the larger Middle Eastern reptiles.

Your correct about different origins of the word for Worm but if we looked for the one of the best known Gemanic Worm stories Siegfried/Sigurd this is likely to date from the Roman period not before. Some have even said that he served in the Roman army.

It may have a earlier truth behind of some sort, it but these things change so many times through history that they become lost in the mists of time.

[Arturus Uriconium]

It's worth noting that some kinds of dragons, such as the Germanic worm/wyrm/wurm, derive from the serpent and not from the larger Middle Eastern reptiles.

Your correct about different origins of the word for Worm but if we looked for the one of the best known Gemanic Worm stories Siegfried/Sigurd this is likely to date from the Roman period not before. Some have even said that he served in the Roman army.

It may have a earlier truth behind of some sort, it but these things change so many times through history that they become lost in the mists of time.

Hi John,

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, just noting the differing origins for the differing dragons. The Worm (wingless and legless) could have been the Sarmatian type, as opposed to, say, the Wyvern (wings and two legs) or Heraldic (wings and four legs as on the Welsh flag) and those winged ones of the Middle East. Of course the Greek Hydra was also wingless.

Mak

[Agraes]

In a more simple fashion, I would simply see the draco used by Sarmatians AND Romans and well attested in use quite late in Britain (see the Bayeux Tapestry) as beeing the possible origin of the welsh dragon.

But for the case of Gwynedd, it would like to add that in its territory lies Segontium, the very likely fort of the Seguntienses we find in Illyria according to the Notitia Dignitatum near the place where Magnus Maximus died in 388 AD, and I seriously don't think its a coincidence and Im not convinced by the iberian Segontia theory to explain their name. And the emblem of the Seguntienses are two red worms.

As a reminder, here they are rendered on our scutii, the head beeing reinterpreted from another source.

[Arturus Uriconium]

In a more simple fashion, I would simply see the draco used by Sarmatians AND Romans and well attested in use quite late in Britain (see the Bayeux Tapestry) as beeing the possible origin of the welsh dragon.

But for the case of Gwynedd, it would like to add that in its territory lies Segontium, the very likely fort of the Seguntienses we find in Illyria according to the Notitia Dignitatum near the place where Magnus Maximus died in 388 AD, and I seriously don't think its a coincidence and Im not convinced by the iberian Segontia theory to explain their name. And the emblem of the Seguntienses are two red worms.

As a reminder, here they are rendered on our scutii, the head beeing reinterpreted from another source.

Interesting stuff Ben.

Someone more knowledgeable will be able to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that there was evidence that Sarmatians were using the draco BEFORE the Romans and the Romans adopted it? Certainly Robert believes so:

[url:37xmq51q]http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/draco.htm[/url]

[Arturus Uriconium]

It's harder to prove that in this case. An entity or unkown force of nature could be represented by any 'local' aminal.But by the Iron Age (if not pre-Bronze age) we are looking at the general acceptance of human like deities like the cultures of mainland europe.These seem to be associated with tribes. General gods(often used for natural events) are shared but tribal gods seem to be linked with 'their' people. So the question is why would they continue to use a older form of life force, if they did.

John, I've been thinking about this and it does appear that whilst the Germanic and Scandinavians may have had personalised gods (as did the Romans come to that) they still had a reverence for and belief in the dragon and I doubt - though cannot prove - that theirs came via either the Sarmatians or Romans. The Milky Way was the Worm of Middle Earth for example and we also have the Beowulf dragons. Whilst these are much later, of course, it seems to point to the independent development of the dragon. Feathered serpents of the Aztec point to another:



...not to mention China of course where it's been around for 5000 years at least. Even in Ireland St Patrick is supposed to have imprisoned them, along with banishing the snakes. Wales used to have a tradition of house serpents (common in many parts of Europe apprently) and it was said that if it was fed human milk it would turn into a Wibber (a type of serpent dragon). Wibbers could often be destructive. There's no way of knowing when this dragon developed however.

My point is that seems to have 'flown in' from all directions and not just the Middle East so there's no reason why it couldn't have been present in Britain, though there's no way of proving it one way or another.

As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Mak

[fasta]

John, I've been thinking about this and it does appear that whilst the Germanic and Scandinavians may have had personalised gods (as did the Romans come to that) they still had a reverence for and belief in the dragon and I doubt - though cannot prove - that theirs came via either the Sarmatians or Romans. The Milky Way was the Worm of Middle Earth for example and we also have the Beowulf dragons. Whilst these are much later, of course, it seems to point to the independent development of the dragon. Feathered serpents of the Aztec point to another:



...not to mention China of course where it's been around for 5000 years at least. Even in Ireland St Patrick is supposed to have imprisoned them, along with banishing the snakes. Wales used to have a tradition of house serpents (common in many parts of Europe apprently) and it was said that if it was fed human milk it would turn into a Wibber (a type of serpent dragon). Wibbers could often be destructive. There's no way of knowing when this dragon developed however.

My point is that seems to have 'flown in' from all directions and not just the Middle East so there's no reason why it couldn't have been present in Britain, though there's no way of proving it one way or another.

As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Mak

When I mentioned the East I was thinking as far as the Far East,China being the main example.As for a connection Aztec's I'm not even going down that road. :wink:

China may be the place of 'birth' of the symbol but that takes us off topic completely.

I agree with Robert and many others as to the introduction of Dragon image's through Eastern cavarly/Sarmatian units in the Roman army.How they got them is another story,perhaps from the far east over a long period of time?

The examples we have in Germanic or British/Briton's are post Roman so how can we say that they aren't at least influenced if not created because of Roman culture?

We can't say that they were pre-Roman just because they existed further east.

To return to your point which raised my interest in the thread.That the Brigantes could of used a Dragon for their symbol which was later taken West. I personally have a problem with the idea because of the lack of evidence that it was a pre-Roman tribal symbol.

After Rome perhaps (if a tribal system still existed)they may of used a Draco. I've no problem with the theory then or that the Britons in the West used Roman symbols still.But these surely are because they wanted to continue the link with Roman rather than any ancient tribal roots.

Then this can be said for the house of Wessex in the Saxon period up to the Normans,both who worked towards the Roman ideas.

I've said my bit on the matter and we will have to agree to disagree. wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

Fair enough!

[Alanus]

If we consider the "age" and origin of the dragon, it seems to have "flown" from the east to west-- China, Mesopotamia, and so forth. And then we find it eventually represented on Roman shields, and most likely in Germanic folklore that post-dates Roman Britain. Wolfram has noted, probably correctly, that there's a Gothic influence in the Icelandic Sagas (the Old Edda, I think). This Migration Period influence-- the Sarmatization of the Goths, then cultural transfer to the West Germans and Celts-- seems to echo in the later lore, especially Beowulf and the Hervor Saga.

The significant point is cultural exchange, in a domino "ripple" that began in far Asia, then into the Near East, so on and so forth. We hear claims (rather groundless) of dragons in Egypt, yet no illustrations of a dragon are found anywhere in Egyptian art, an art that is noted for depicting endless forms of strange beasts. And we have writers like Gardner who relate "dragon of the Island" to a non-historical "messa," or the so-called "anointed one" as "proof" of the dragon's Egyptian origin. There is no proof, Gardner is full of hot air, and we find the draco on the Orlot battle plaque and other Asian artforms, including depictions of the dragon and pearl on sword-hilts, Budhist gongs, and as the symbol of the house of Han (although without the pearl).

And all of this, either in folklore or art, points to an East-to-West influx that most likely arrived in Britain through cultures (Sarmatian and Gothic) which influenced the Roman army. I'm not sure where the original subject (the Votadini exodus to Wales) fits into all of this. :lol: David Day was so convinced of the Sarmatian influence upon the Votadini that he pictured the famous cataphract grafittio of Dura Europa as scratched upon Hadrian's Wall. :roll:

[dux bellum]

I'm not exactly sure either how the topic switched from the Votadinni either, but what de herr...

As for the draco standard, it just seems like a well-chosen symbol of authority. It's the universal being of power, wrath, and even divinity. It can a be benevolent guardian, or it can be the bane of every living thing in its wake. It's no wonder the Romans and Britons adopted it from wherever the dragon originated (though the draco standard definitely came from the Sarmatians), and that's why it was probably flying over Harold Godwinson's head at Hastings.


I do agree that Vortigern was not a supreme king, and perhaps he held sway over a majority of the Romano British cities. In the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the kings of Baddan (Bath), Ceri (Cirenchester), and Gloui (Gloucester) died at Dyrham, suggesting perhaps that most of the British kingdoms (at least those most affected by the Saxon Advent) had deteriorated into poleis, with kings or warlords ruling the countryside from a single city or hillfort.

[Alanus]

I'm sorry for dropping out of this thread. We sort of got lost, but I still have a question. hock:
Exactly when did the Votadini exodus to Wales, anyway? Perhaps the answer is unknowable, but a rough guess would be interesting to hear. :?: