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The Votadini exodus to Wales
#1
Although outside the scope of the Roman occupation period of Britain, the Votadini (hitherto a buffer or client kingdom to the immediate north-east of Hadrian's Wall) appear to have 'saved' the people of 'Wales' from the Scots (or Irish raiders), migrated their indigenous military and domestic customs and formed the foundation of a kingdom which lasted until Llewellyn. A huge claim to fame!!!!!
Reverting to the tribal 'Gododdin' name - sub question - is 'Votadini' the latinised name for 'Gododdin' ? - this tribe, springing from the hinterland of the Wall, appear to have partly 'saved' the 'British' nation from complete foreign extinction - largely because of expertise learned from earlier Roman military equine practice. Cunedda is the name of the main man to conjure with here apparently along with Macsen and others.
I have read a very readable account by the author Alaistair Moffat (Arthur And The Lost Kingdoms) of these exploits and (although I'd love to believe them) I am struggling to bridge the credibility gap of the story (can one call it history?). All sorts of questions are thrown up - first and foremost - if the story is true WHO requested their help and WHY did they feel obliged to respond so positively ?
I should like to ask whether anyone out there has anything to add (for and against) this - on the surface anyway - wonky piece of bardmanship!!?? :? ? .
Romanonick/Nick Deacon
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#2
The story must have a historical background. I rather doubt Mascen was involved, but certainly Cunedda Wledig, aka "Cunedda the regional leader," or even possibly the term meaning, "legate." I would posit Cunedda cira 400-410, exactly when we have the supposed Roman evacuation. Who was involved in pulling him and his Goddadin south? Perhaps the legendary Vortigern or the northern potentate he so judiciously replaced through trechery. I would venture that the time was right-- time to consolodate British forces into a protectable geographical area, which of course, would become modern Wales.

David Day wrote an interesting, if not slightly fabulous, book on the Goddodin and their "Arthur." He posited that the tribe had intermarried with left-over Sarmatians and illustrated a piece of graffitio purportedly scratched near Hadrian's Wall. The graffiti was actually from Duro Europa in Asia... somewhat a journey from the Wall. Skene proposed a number of Arthurian battles fought in this locality, but he had a northerm bias. We do have a "Sarmatian" draconarius on a memorial stele now in a museum at Chester (as I recall, but then again I may recall incorrectly at times).

Cunedda is a fascinating character, but I cannot say he singlehandedly saved the British people. That was an effort of several tribal leaders, most of them now unknown. But Cunedda must have been a big cheese or he could not have had the high status of a Wledig. Few men had it, and two of them do fall into the Roman period-- Mascen (Maximus the Child Dealer) and Cunedda, who was far more concerned with the British people than Maximus ever was. Another Wledig was Ambrosius Aurelianus, but he was later.

Your idea that the term "Votadini" might be Latin could be correct. I think Goddodin might be Welsh; at least Lady Charlotte Guest thought so.

Alanus, A.J. Campbell
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#3
On the subject of the 'Gododdin' tribal name; I don't know how latinised the 'original' name 'Votadini' is, but as far as I know (though if anyone wishes to correct me on this, please do!), 'Gododdin' is actually the more modern Welsh-language spelling of the name, taking into account the changes in pronunciation and orthography. So the idea is: Votadini - Guotodin - Gododdin. That's how I've heard it explained, anyway. Smile
Beth M.
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#4
At least part of the story is Medieval fabrication, the problem is finding out how much. Clear examples are the names of the 'sons' of Cunedda who just so happened to lend their name to the cantrefs of Gwynedd.
Also the son of the eldest son (who remained up North) arriving later and leaving his name for a lesser cantref.

Also fishy is the claim that Cunedda drove out the Irish for ever, which was a clearly wrong statement because the irish were driven out later (again).

Part of the story may be pushed by the spin doctors of the Second dynasty of Gwynedd (the family of Merfyn Frych and specifically Owain ap Hywel Dda who cast the Harleian pedigrees in the tenth century) , who also arrived from abroad, and may have tried to hide that fact by embellishing the 'other' foreign dynasty before them. Cunedda supposedly came from Manau Gododdin, the Second dynasty came from another Manau (Isle of Man).
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#5
to Robert... or anyone, actually

As you point out, the Gododdin did have an impact upon Welsh geographical names. The idea that Cunedda and his boys expelled the Irish "forever" must have been a fancy, designed to conflate his family name. Troops of Romano-Brits were still trying to drive out the Irish in the mid-to-late fifth century, and even then they never did.

Are the names of any of Cunedda's daughters still extant? My interest is the possibility that Thiudebalth married one of them, or one of Ceridig's (which isn't terribly plausible). The info or hint comes from the Truman manuscript in the Iolo collection. I know how you feel about the good old faker, but the Truman ms and the Saints ms do not seem to be in his hand. Facsimilies of the handwriting can be found in the published version. My feeling is that the poetry was his, but the two major records of families and saints were probably authentic... not neccessarily accurate, but authentic. :lol:

Best regards,

Alanus, A.J. Campbell
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#6
Quote:The info or hint comes from the Truman manuscript in the Iolo collection. I know how you feel about the good old faker, but the Truman ms and the Saints ms do not seem to be in his hand.
Confusedhock: Hmmmmmmmm. Welll... I would put any money on that. Daughters, too, are most of the time 'invented' to claim supposed connections to otherwise unconnected families (plus their heritage).
Of course, that does not mean that such persons never existed, but see the Pillar of Elise(g) where an otherwise unattested daughter of Magnus Maximus crops up, to be married to Vortigern. Now IF that would have been a 9th-c. forgery, the forger took pains to use a very Roman name for the girl.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#7
I'm too broke to put money on anything. :lol:

You are probably correct about ficticious daughters, but they were needed: otherwise we'd have no spurious pedigrees at all! Whenever the genealogical "doctors" got ahold of the original Brecan ms., they turned two battles into pedigrees. Somehow, the tribune Marcellus got a sex change and became "Marshall," the daughter of either Tewdrig or Mauric. :roll: She went on to birth Brycon. Then we have "Arthur's" famous sister Anna, who maybe fell out of the Bible while delivering Saint Samson... or was it Saint David? I really can't remember, somewhat confused by the great number of children and saints that all these authentic daughters had.

I know that the genealogies are bogus and inflated, but without them we would have nothing in the way of psudo-history at all. We have good, honest, men like Darrell Wolcott, who study these things with serious dillegence. I applaud them, don't argee with them, but admire their seemingly tail-chasing efforts.

And where would we be without the lovely and talented Rowena? I always believed she was carried back to Wales after the Revenge... where she founded the Glamorgan Knife Shapening School.

If you get the chance, pull up the Iolo Manuscripts on Google Book Search. The faxcimiles of manuscripts 1 and 2 are shown in an illustration. Iolo was a great faker, but he'd have to change his handwriting and penmanship to an extreme to create one and the other.

tight lines,

Alanus, A.J. Campbell
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#8
Quote: Somehow, the tribune Marcellus got a sex change and became "Marshall," the daughter of either Tewdrig or Mauric. :roll: She went on to birth Brycon. Then we have "Arthur's" famous sister Anna, who maybe fell out of the Bible while delivering Saint Samson... or was it Saint David? I really can't remember, somewhat confused by the great number of children and saints that all these authentic daughters had.
Yup. And Coel became 'married' to Hadrian's wall (Gwawl) and one of his sons to the Wall road (Stratgwawl)! :wink: And battles to man - how about Rhuddfael (Ruduedel, Rhuddfedel, Rudduedel), 'grandson'of Vortigern? He is made the successor of Catigern in most of the later pedigrees. The fact that he is not present in any of the earlier ones makes it very likely that his presence there is due to either an interpolation or another kind of error. His name is strangely familiar, as it resembles the British name for the battle in which his father Catigern died. This battle, called Episford in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, is called Rithergabail in the Historia Brittonum. Transformed, indeed.

Quote:I know that the genealogies are bogus and inflated, but without them we would have nothing in the way of psudo-history at all. We have good, honest, men like Darrell Wolcott, who study these things with serious dillegence. I applaud them, don't argee with them, but admire their seemingly tail-chasing efforts.
True again!

Quote:If you get the chance, pull up the Iolo Manuscripts on Google Book Search.
What title?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#9
The title is "Iolo Manuscripts," by Taliesin Williams, Iolo Morganwg, Thomas Price, Owen Jones, Society for the Publication of Ancient Welsh Manuscripts, W. Rees, London, 1848.

The facsimile of the manuscript handwriting is on page 90. The reason I originally consulted it was to get grit on the family of Meurig ap Tewdrig. All the old-time historians thought he was Uther Pendragon, which he was... sort of. I needed a reference to quote for a book I'm writing. These old pedigrees are a horror-show, with all eleventy-seven daughters marrying everyone except Kaiser Wilhelm. But the strange thing is that once in awhile, they give good grit that even a good faker like Iolo couldn't dream up in his worst Celtic nightmare.

On another thread, Roots-Web, I found John Rieth (Riothamus) married to a "Miss of Ireland... or... a daughter of Uther Pendragon's grandfather." How inextricably odd! :wink: Because it could very well be correct. The Iolo progression, as well as most others, runs as Maurig ap Tewdrig ap Theithfallt. In that light, Theithfallt's daughter as John Rieth's wife makes him the brother-in-law of Tewdrig, whom I think was Arthur... not Riothamus as Geoffrey Ashe claims.

These old writers hit paydirt once in awhile, even when they didn't know it. Back in 1795, David Williams claimed that Maurig's son Athruis took the appellation of Arthwyr, or the "Bear Exalted." Two hundred years later, Mike Ashley claimed that Arthwyr meant "grandson of the Bear." I checked it out through the Department of Welsh, University of Wales, Lampester. Sure enough, Ashley was correct... but he never realized the significance.

Athruis was riding on his grandfather's coat-tails, using the Bear connection for all it was worth. I've followed this implication back to Rev. Williams, then Whitaker, to what I think is the source-- Thomas Carte in 1747. Hopefully I have a microfilm of his volume coming through Inter Library.

Athruis was the son of Mauric, the grandson of Tewdrig/Theodoric. And this paints Theodoric as the Bear, in other words Arthur. The original Uther Pendragon (Ufar pandracon-- commander of the dragonmen) would be Theithfallt (Thieudebalth)... whom I think arrived in Britain as a Roman officer. This is just a theory; but the quirky and oft goofy pedigrees sometimes have a grain of truth hidden in all those lurid generations. If you collect all the info found in Iolo, Ashe, Wilson & Blackett, Barber & Pickett, or whomever has written an off-the-wall Arthurian book, the implications are there. Yet nobody put it all together.

Did I just put myself into the space-shot catagory? :roll: And of course, this has little to do with the Gododdin. Which reminds me-- was Cunedda related to that tribe?

Best and better,

Alanus, A.J. Campbell
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#10
There are lots of theories surrounding the Cunedag (Cunedda) migration, if that’s what indeed it was. If the sources are correct then he/they didn’t simply travel from Manau Goutodin to North Wales but fought battles at Durham and Carlisle on the way. Who they fought at these two places is anybody’s guess: raiding Angles at Durham, Scotti at Carlisle or simply in-fighting? This information does come form Llyf Taliesin and the Death Song of Cunedda, so it’s hard to know if it’s original. To quote from the Celtic Twilight website:

Quote:Sir Ifor Williams believed this poem to be a ninth or tenth-century pseudo-archaic fraud; but more recently R.G. Gruffudd and John Koch have both argued that it should be considered a genuine Northern British elegy. Gruffudd believes that 'it reads in fact like a North British poem composed shortly after Cunedda's death (there is no reference to his exploits in North Wales)'. Koch has noted that Cunedda's enemies appear to have been the Roman-fortified towns south of the Wall and that amongst his followers appear to be the men of Bernicia. A later pseudo-archaic fraud would also likely have an overtly Christian tone as in Marwnad Owain, which is also attributed to the historical sixth-century Taliesin.

It’s also important to remember that he was supposedly from Manau Goutodin (Manaw Gododdin) too, which is identified as the area around the Firth of the Fourth and north of the Antonine Wall, not Hadrian’s. It should not be seen as encompassing the same larger area as the Votadini are thought to have done.

As to who sent him south and why, well, that depends on exactly when it happened and there’s still no consensus as to when that was... if it actually happened. It’s anywhere between 383 and 440. The historian Wade-Evans believes the following:

Quote:Directed by Stilicho, Cunedda assembled forces and diver elements, mostly British... [who] congregated around Carlisle... Their objective in coming was to turn out the recent intruders from Ireland (not, of course, the Irish of old standing), which they would seem to have accomplished with great effect.

The earlier arrival date in northwest Wales would mean that it was probably Maximus that invited him. Others believe the request came from Vortigern after Maximus took the Segontium legions with him and as Robert knows from the articles of August Hunt at Vortigern Studies he argues that Cunedag could have been the Vortigern. He also argues that he was Irish, and that’s not a mad as it sounds as there’s more chance this area was aided by Irish mercenaries and there’s the grave of Cunorix at Viriconium (c475) that may be proof of this.

Although Cunedag is associated with North Wales now, he was supposed to have rid the Britons of the Irish in the southwest of Wales too. In fact the only evidence of his name is the hill of Allt Cunedda in St. Ishmael's Parish, south east Dyfed, north of Kidwelly.

The whole getting rid of the Irish is a complex argument, because it appears, as Wade-Evans argued, that there were both native or long settled Goidelic speakers on the western seaboard as well as Irish raiders in the form of Scotti, Lein and Desi. This could be why it looks like he didn’t rid the Irish from Wales, where as he did but left the Goidelic natives alone and these were later driven out, or/and Brythonifide by Cadwallon Long Hand. Of course, there could have been more raids and settlements after Cunedag’s death to explain this.

There’s also the possibility that he wasn’t from Manau Goutodin at all but had been on a campaign there and was from further south and perhaps even a commander at the Wall. He could have been from Britannia Prima originally and was simply coming ‘home’. There’s no archaeological evidence that another culture was imposed on North Wales, which many believe should have been the case. However, if we’re talking a military campaign and not a migration there wouldn’t be any evidence.
Arturus Uriconium
a.k.a Mak Wilson
May the horse be with you!
[url:17bayn0a]http://www.makltd.biz[/url]
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#11
Meant to add this link. It's to a Google online book by Frank Reno, which covers the Cunedda question in some detail.
[url:bbuxdsmi]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V231D2Ff5nYC&pg=RA1-PA146&lpg=RA1-PA146&dq=cunedda&source=web&ots=TYW8GaI9F7&sig=eL5872h8axWQUFNic1TwGtEbuto&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result[/url]
Arturus Uriconium
a.k.a Mak Wilson
May the horse be with you!
[url:17bayn0a]http://www.makltd.biz[/url]
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#12
Quote:Meant to add this link. It's to a Google online book by Frank Reno, which covers the Cunedda question in some detail.
[url:532o2hiz]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V231D2Ff5nYC&pg=RA1-PA146&lpg=RA1-PA146&dq=cunedda&source=web&ots=TYW8GaI9F7&sig=eL5872h8axWQUFNic1TwGtEbuto&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result[/url]
Reno overdoes things a bit. he actually states that (Vortigern's sons) Britu and Vortimer were the same person as Cunedda, as well as the West Saxon king Elesa.
Like I said in the Riothamus thread, that's too much. Nothing from what we know of Cunedda agrees with what we know of Vortimer. Nothing from what we know of the West Saxon kings agrees with the others. It would be nice to 'know' that Cerdic was the son of Vortimer (others thought so before Reno on different grounds) but there's nothing reeally substantial to assume so.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#13
I totally agree Robert and only gave the thread for more background information and another theory on Cunedda.

What are your thoughts on August Hunt's theory on Cunedda?
Arturus Uriconium
a.k.a Mak Wilson
May the horse be with you!
[url:17bayn0a]http://www.makltd.biz[/url]
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#14
Quote:What are your thoughts on August Hunt's theory on Cunedda?

August meant to explain Vortigern as an Irishman because of the strong legendary connections to the Llyn Peninsula. At the time we did not have answers how a seemingly eastern British Vortigern could also have such strong ties to the extreme West of Britain, other than being a different person. To me, though, August took a few steps too large (the explanation of Cynric being the father of Ceawlin while on the Wroxeter Stone it is (Maqui)coline who is the father of Cunorix, or Padarn Pesrut 'being' Da Dergda). Since then, I developed my own thoughts on Vortigern's connections to Llyn.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#15
Thanks for that Robert. Would love to hear (or rather read) your thoughts on Vortigern and the Lleyn sometime.
Arturus Uriconium
a.k.a Mak Wilson
May the horse be with you!
[url:17bayn0a]http://www.makltd.biz[/url]
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