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08-10-2004, 11:18 PM

www.kylosa.com/Hosting/Warriors_Home/800x600/Helms/Austrian-Spangenhelm.jpeg 
 
This picture was found on a site with pictures of Roman equipment and it lists it as a 5th century and on helmet. I have seen these types of helms often, but usually they are attributed to germanic tribes (Ostrogoth is one I see very often in realtion to this type of spangenhelm), but is there any evidence of their useage in the late Roman Empire? If not, what about Britain? 
 
Thanks for any words of wisdom! 
 
Cavetus

08-11-2004, 01:02 AM

Its tough to say, as by that time the Romans really were more Germanic(at least in the west) than destinctly Roman I believe. 
 
The standardization/style of equipment by that time had also faded as the central government was no longer really effective. By that time as long as you had a sword and shield and marched on the Roman side, you were a Roman soldier :-) (over generalization somewhat, but you get the idea) 
 
However if you look in "Roman Cavalry Equipment" by I.P Stephenson ?& K.R Dixon in under later Roman helmets, very similar styles appear. Its also the influence from the eastern Roman empire(Byzantine) than comes through. 
 
I doubt anyone can say for sure if it was strictly Roman, unless the guy hammered his name and legionary unit into it ! :-)

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-11-2004, 03:58 AM

Hi Cavetus, 
 
Indeed it would be difficult to say if this was manufactured inside or outside the Empire, but from the design I'd say it would be Germanic rather than Roman. These helmets are found in Alamannic areas, or at least non-Roman ares. 
 
I think these helmets could be worn in the Roman army, even though they would probably not be Roman equipment. Yes, such a helmet could be worn in 5th-c. Britain, because Britain was outside the Empire then, and all helmets would have been imported. But the owner of such a helmet would rather more likely have been a Germanic federate than a British soldier. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 8/11/04 5:59 am

aitor iriarte · 08-11-2004, 05:15 AM

Excuse me if I don't back my assert with bibliography but that needs time and I haven't much of that lately! 
That spangenhelm is Germanic, not Roman and all. The worst problem for you, Tom, is that the helmet is sixth century in date (Mmmmh, not too late for Arthurian wars... ) 
Among the hundreds of Frankish and Alamannic tombs, only a really small handful of them have yielded helmets. Maybe they were too expensive for tha vast majority of warriors or maybe they were a too valuable heirloom as to be disposed of at a burial. 
Two helmets from Egypt, one at the Coptic Museum (Cairo) and teh other at the Rijksmuseum (Leiden) seem to be Roman spangenhelme. They've been loosely dated from late thgird century to sixth century but the recent tendency is to put them near the earlier date. They are much less evolved that the helmet on your picture, in any case. 
 
Aitor

08-11-2004, 09:29 AM

My thinking was that this was more germanic than Roman, mostly due to the similarity with many other germanic helms from about that time period. It wouldn't have broken my heart at all to be wrong on this, but if it isn't it isn't. 
 
Oh well! Thanks for the input folks!! 
 
Cavetus

08-11-2004, 10:53 AM

On the Spangenhelmets of Baldenheimer Type a lot of research has been done. The best summarize is 
Kurt BÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¶hner: Die frÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¼hmittelalterlichen Spangenhelme und die nordischen Helme der Vendelzeit in RGZM 41,2 (1994). 
There 32 known Spangenhelmets are listed. 
BÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¶hner concludes: 
- ALL Spangenhelmets of Baldenheimer Type were produced in the mediterranean and NOT north of the Alpes (theres no influence of germanic animal style). 
- there are 2 groups of helmets: one western with mainly 6 spangen, and the eastern with 4. The eastern group "belongs without doubt to byzantine helm producing" fabricae. The western group was produced in Italian fabricae, which continued to work under ostrogothic kings, under the Exarchate and until the beginning of langobard rule "with no influence of the art of the barbarian tribes", so BÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¶hner. 
- Spangenhelmets were produced as "feast presents to higher officers" (by barbaricarii in the fabricae; one barbaricarius had to produce six helmets per month) 
- Spangenhelmets were not produced privatly 
- they could only be obtained as property of the state, present or as prey. Through these possibilities they came to the germanic gentes. 
- although Spangelmets were so precious they were used in battle (the Morken helmet has remnants of heavy sword thrusts)

08-11-2004, 01:37 PM

Quote:<hr>- Spangenhelmets were not produced privatly<hr> 
 
I have to ask for what time period was this true? After all, the spangenhelm went on well past the western empires collapse, so they were no longer produced that way (which I'm sure you already know, but the quote was a bit vague in that regard). 
 
I have to admit, I'm not familiar with your source but perhaps you could direct me to some images of some of these western spangenhelms you speak of. The only one I'm familiar with is teh Der-el-Medinah helmet, which is a six peice spangenhelm. Are there more surviving examples, and if so are they how much variation exists between these helmets and the Der-el-Medinah helmet? 
 
Thanks again! 
 
Cavetus

Chariovalda · 08-11-2004, 04:59 PM

Talking about the Morken helmet, here's a nice replica, by a Georgian smith, Gotscha, who lives in the Netherlands: 
 
<img src="http://home.wanadoo.nl/gotscha/spangenhelm.JPG" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Nice, hey?

08-11-2004, 05:14 PM

To support natuspardo statement just in Iustiniana Prima 10 or 15 helmets were found.

08-11-2004, 05:14 PM

I only talked about Spangenhelmets of the Baldenheim type cause thats what your picture shows. They are a family of at least 32 helmets found all over europe and even in north africa (vandal kingdom). They are all related to each other, some definitely belonging to the same workshop. They are dated to 5th and 6th c and are descendents of the der-el medineh helmet of the 4th. 
The western fabricae continued its production until around 600 AD. 
Other Spangenhelmets are known, but they dont have that kind of uniformity the Baldenheim types have. 
 
a pic of a Baldenheim type reco from Morken, Germany: 
www.gotscha.nl/uk-spangenhelm.htm 
an example from Italy is here: 
www.dhm.de/sammlungen/mil...zh231.html 
one of the most magnificent ones, StÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¶ssen in Germany: 
www.archlsa.de/schoenheit...ate/46.htm 
and here 
www.emory.edu/HISTORY/tbu...150/52.jpg

08-11-2004, 05:42 PM

Natuspardo, 
 
Thanks for those links! Some very interesting helmets there, to say the least. I greatly appreciate that. 
 
Also, please note that I wasn't doubting you in any way, it was simply needing more information so that I could shut up some doubts. 
 
As a curiousity thing though, I wonder if the pictorial record from the 5th Century has many of these types of helms shown?? 
 
Cavetus Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tomknighton>Tom Knighton</A> at: 8/15/04 12:59 am

Uwe Bahr · 08-12-2004, 03:50 AM

I can add the link to a photo from a further spangenhelm. It is a very unusual example and was found already in the year 1925 in the sand of the river Balge nearby Bremen. The rivets are thorn-like pulled out. Probably the surface of the helmet was silvered. The exact date - to me - is not known, may be it shows the transition to the Middle Ages. 
 
[url=http://www.missouri.edu/~rls555/SCA/research/helms/Focke_Spangenhelm.jpg" target="top]www.missouri.edu/~rls555/SCA/research/helms/Focke_Spangenhelm.jpg[/url] 
 
Uwe

L C Cinna · 08-12-2004, 03:03 PM

I know this helmet. It's right at the entrance to the Waffensammlung of the KH Museum in Vienna. 
 
As far as I remember they list it as Germanic but I'll call them to find out.

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