2nd Punic War Principes

[Frank Chadwick]

I'm a new forum member and have a burning question, which if anyone can answer, I suspect you folks can.

The secondary sources on the Roman army of the 2nd Punic War are unanimous in giving the pila to the hastati and principes and the hasta longa to the triarii. The source for this claim is almost invariably given as Polibius. (Book VI, 23).

The thing is, I have Polibius, or at least the Schuckburgh translation, which I think is respected, and that is not what that passage says. Instead it reads:

"The Principes and Triarii are armed in the same way as the Hastati, except that instead of the pila they carry long spears (hastae)."

That pretty unambiguously states that the Principes had the thrusting spear, not the pila. Once I read this and scratched my head over it for a while, I started looking for any other primary source support for the Principes having the pila during the 2nd Punic War, and could not find any, although there is a lot of ground there I haven't covered.

I've also been doing web searches, and the only primary source I've found cited for the claim is (again) Polibius VI, 23. One online resource even paraphrases the passage in Polibius/Shuckburgh, but renders it as, "The Principes and Triarii were armed in the same way as the Hastati, except that instead of the pila the latter carried long spears." (italics mine) That would certainly prove the point if it was indeed what the text said, but to the best of my knowledge it isn't.

So here is the question (questions, actually):

Is the Shuckburgh translation flawed?

If not, is there some other clear primary source which puts the pila in the hands of the Principes at this time?

And (finally) if not, have all these secondary sources on the Roman Army just been feeding off of each other and repeating the same mistake over and over?

Frank Chadwick

[M. Demetrius]

Well, the version I have is translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert, Penguin Classics, first published 1979. The last sentence of VI.23 says this:

"The principes and triarii are armed with the same weapons [presumably of the hastati from the earlier parts of the section--my insertion] except that instead of the throwing-spear, the triarii carry long thrusting-spears (hastae).

This seems to mean that the triarii are armed ONLY with thrusting spears, but confusingly, might mean that the principes are armed with both hasta and pilum. Not clearing things up, am I?

[Frank Chadwick]

David,

Thanks for the speedy reply.

If Polybius had written in Latin I could puzzle through the original but I'm afraid I have no Greek at all. I wonder if anyone has access to the actual Greek text and can tell us which translation seems more faithful to it?

Frank Chadwick

[Frank Chadwick]

After a bit more digging, I am increasingly certain that the Shuckburgh translation is just plain wrong. For one thing, the Loeb translation agrees with the Penguin Classic translation David cited. For another, I dug out the Greek and although I do not read Greek, I can tell that the word Triarii appears twice in the sentence, once toward the end, which agrees with both the Loeb and Penguin trnaslations, but not Shuckburgh.

Case closed, I think.

The subject is interesting to me because it's reasonably clear that the Principes were still using the hasta longe when fighting Pyrrhus, not that long before the 2nd Punic War, but not clear at all when they made the transition to pilla. Polibius writing after the 2nd Punic War confirms ue of the pilla then, but the legion he describes is (it seems to me) the result of all the development/adaptation which went on during the war, so not a very reliable guide to what the legion looked like at the start of the war.

Frank Chadwick

[D B Campbell]

I wonder if anyone has access to the actual Greek text and can tell us which translation seems more faithful to it?

Wonderful web site here. Greek text + if you scroll down, you can alternate between the Loeb and Shuckburgh translations.
You're right -- Shuckburgh seems to have nodded off here!

(It has Josephus, too!)

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

ὁ δ᾽ αὐτὸς τρόπος τῆς καθοπλίσεώς ἐστι καὶ περὶ τοὺς πρίγκιπας καὶ τριαρίους, πλὴν ἀντὶ τῶν ὑσσῶν οἱ τριάριοι δόρατα φοροῦσιν.

And the same manner of the arming exists on account of the principes and triarii, except that instead of the javelins the triarii carry spears.

[Frank Chadwick]

Many thanks for everyone's reply. That is a great site, Duncan.

Frank Chadwick

[Narukami]

Mr. Chadwick,

Welcome to the Forum!

Please forgive this intrusion from the modern world, but your name caught my eye -- would you just happen to be the same Frank Chadwick, game designer formerly with GDW?

Just wondering.

:wink:

Narukami

[Frank Chadwick]

Why, yes I am.

Frank Chadwick

[Narukami]

Welcome to the Forum Sir.

The GDW Assault series was great. I am a fan of the old GDW games -- Eagles was an early favorite that I still play from time to time.

I think you will find that the Forum is populated by many generous scholars and authors who are happy to share the fruits of their labor with those who have an interest in the topic of ancient Rome in particular and of history in general. No doubt you have noticed in the other topic areas that the breadth of knowledge here is both wide and deep. Your background and experience will certainly add to the discourse -- I do hope you will join in.

Thanks for your excellent game design work and once again Welcome to our Forum.

:wink:

Narukami