Lanyards on Gladii?

[A_Volpe]

aaah, Tassels!...That to me is a perfectly valid possibility.

I'm thinking too, some of these pommels have loops, maybe they were to hold precious stones/jewels set in them

maybe they were clinched in such a way so a small stone or metal ball inside the loop would be like a rattle or bell? Obnoxious as any Roman would like

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I wouldn't be surprised a bit if centurions threw pila at the same time as everybody else. I don't think they brought their vitis into battle, though, that was for the camp.

(And yes, Byron, I made up that "quoted" ancedote above, just for you. Don't you feel special now?) :wink: :lol:

I always feel special Dave! :wink:

Sulla, I was meaning I don't think they went into battle with just their vinestick, but with a scutum. and while I don't discount the possibility of them 'chukin spears too, I can also just imagine them with just thier gladius....
but it is only my opinion.

[Matt Lukes]

Tassels, etc., well sure- anything could be attached to those little rings. We have evidence for a wrist strap, so much more is purely speculative.

And the pilum throwing issue could be used to explain the disappearance of the strap- maybe it was just used less and less and eventually dropped; no sword beyond the transitional G. pompeiiensis of the Herculaneum Solider is known to have the Magdalenburg type pommel nut, and no other style has a 'built in' capacity for one, some simply couldn't have done.

I'll test out the pilum throw time thing at some point as I still don't see the short time it might take to be so impossible to manage with training before the Celts are apon the first line. For all we know, they didn't even throw pila, but had their swords ready out.

Mike- it's an interesting thing, the return to securing weapons better; during the Vietnam War, one often sees rifles with no sling at all or it wrapped around so as to be of no real use, and now specialized slings usually secure a rifle quite well so it's always there and won't be lost- indeed the logic of the latter case works with a short sword since having that knocked from one's hand during a battle would surely be a bad thing...

[Hibernicus]

Or maybe.. ach, that dread word.... it's for a thong of sorts to secure the sword in place.. so it doesn't bounce/fall out...

[Magnus]

That makes sense as well, then it's unbound when going into combat. Even doing regular pila tossing, a lot of people's pugiones and gladii would go launching out of their scabbards...

[Matt Lukes]

hock: Falling out? A 50-55cm long sword falling out of a scabbard? The fit would have to be exceptionally poor and even then, I just don't see this ever being a major issue...

[arklore70]

Matt,
I would agree. I Have thrown hundreds of pila and javelins in full kit (run the pila/javelin booth and you get a lot of practice fast) and I have never had any of my blades fall out then or in simulated combat, demonstrations.

I do keep leather thongs on them now at some events to keep overly curious small children from running up and attempting to pull a pugio or gladius out as it just saves me the rear end pain of explaining to a a clueless and over defenseless parent why I shouted/or admonished their undisciplined child.

I am of the opinion it was to secure the gladius to the scabbard to to something else on the trooper but not his wrist. I'd love to see the experimental results of this. I may give it a try myself at the Fort Stevens Event or a Castra this year.

Mike

[Matt Lukes]

But the only depiction, and there isn't just one, is of a WRIST STRAP folks- not a lanyard or anything else- that simply can't be ignored. See the attachment- it's from a relief of a group of 3 Provocatores, pictured in Junkelmann's Das Spiel mit dem Tod. Clearly the strap goes around the back of the guy's hand (and is probably twisted there and then further goes aroudn his wrist).

[Tarbicus]

Clearly the strap goes around the back of the guy's hand (and is probably twisted there and then further goes aroudn his wrist).

If it's a large simple loop (see the Miks illustration showing the double loops holes, which could point towards such a thing). While on the run after throwing the pilum (I don't want to get into an argument about that), simply put your hand and wrist through the loop, and then turn your wrist and hand around and around until the loop has twisted around itself enough and pulls tight. Then pull out your gladius. With practice it should be easy peasy.

Even though the gladiator shows it wrapped around his hand, he didn't have to pull from a scabbard. However, it's perfectly clear that losing the gladius in combat could be a problem IMHO.

edit: I don't think it's wrapped around his hand, now. It looks like part of the arm guard to secure that.

[Hibernicus]

Maybe... the lanyard is for specific kinds of fighting...

[Tarbicus]

Maybe... the lanyard is for specific kinds of fighting...

With a short sword, perhaps? A Pompeii gladius would fit into that category (even a Mainz), and it's safe to assume the amount of blood on the grip would be more than a longer Celtic/Germanic sword simply because it's closer to the wound it makes.

Taking another look at the photo Matt posted, I now suspect the strap across the back of the hand is to secure the bottom of the armguard to keep it oriented correctly (manica wearers, take note and have a think), and the strap around the thumb is at the end of the lanyard. Hooking your thumb through could be as effective as around the wrist, as it's naturally part of your grasping mechanism.

Another use for the lanyard: If you get wounded or killed, your gladius is a whole lot more difficult to be picked up and used against your fratres, and if you're dragged out for the medics it'll follow right behind you. Bear in mind we know the ancients re-used discarded weaponry (e.g., Romans facing Carthaginians wearing and using spoils from Lake Trasimine or even the depot at Cannae they'd initially captured).

[Hibernicus]

Tarbicus: I now suspect the strap across the back of the hand is to secure the bottom of the armguard to keep it oriented correctly (manica wearers, take note and have a think)

Yup!

Its part of solution we've adapted.. check the last of the pics I posted in the Manica Project thread. I'm holding onto some of the suspension straps but you can see how they pull the manica, keeping in in place.

[Matt Lukes]

Maybe... the lanyard is for specific kinds of fighting...

KISS- keep it simple s.... why is the automatic response sometimes to make things complicated? hock:

[Matt Lukes]

edit: I don't think it's wrapped around his hand, now. It looks like part of the arm guard to secure that.

Actually, yes, I realized that yesterday when I had another look at the image in the book rather than the scan I had; in fact, it might even be that the obviously twisted cord on the sword might be running up the guy's forearm and that bit tied around his elbow might be it too. It's hard to tell. The forearm binding seems to be what's around the front of his hand- I agree there Jim- and it might be what's around the elbow- but it does look like it might have some twisting to it, which the binding doesn't. That's why I don't so much think what's running the length of his forearm is part of the binding- it's twisted and doesn't really fit.

[Matt Lukes]

Taking another look at the photo Matt posted, I now suspect the strap across the back of the hand is to secure the bottom of the armguard to keep it oriented correctly (manica wearers, take note and have a think),

Well not to derail Barry's thread, but I did try that initially with my first manica back in December of '07 as it is a completely obvious place for securing the piece, but I really didn't like how it interfered with a good grip on a sword. I guess one could get used to it though- clearly the gladiator in the relief has no trouble with that binding of his. But the 'mysterious' extra rivet hole in just one of the fragments from Newstead begged the use of a strap someplace, and the wrist works wonderfully- secures the manica to the arm (all kinds of buckles are quite unnecessary), and it doesn't interfere with one's grip.