Guttering on swords

[Caballo]

Looking through Miks this weekend, he has the early Imperial scabbard and hilt types summarised as follows.



Drawing 45 clearly shows guttering.

My German isn't good enough...but in making a reconstruction of a gladius or spatha using the scabbard mouths with "legs" (eg 36 or 37 in the picture), should there be no guttering as per Godfrey Knight's reconstruction...?


.......or guttering as per Miks drawing? Or are both valid?

In the illustrations in Miks and Bishop & Coulston , there are examples of early and Mainz type gladii and spathae with guttering.
In comparison, Pompeii gladii seem to be without guttering.

Here are the B&C Principiate scabbard illustrations.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig041.png


Could someone with better knowledge or better German than me (which sets the bar very, very low :roll: ) give me some guidance on reconstructing the scabbards using 36 and 37 scabbard mouths?

To gutter or not to gutter?

Cheers

Caballo

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

I think nºs 36 and 37 have short legs because belongs to a more elaborated frame/ guttering scabbard. Probably have no sense to use without a complete frame, because only one of the suspensions bands could be placed over.

When you have made your fabulous reconstruction of a fulham sword, i have noticed you that probably were better to to a complete guttering, with overlaped palmettes.

In my opinion the interpretation of Godfrey Knight or the so called "Long Windsor" swords used some years ago by the ESG are not correct.

I think another sword (Porto Vechio) shows how were constructed the swords with such kind of "mouth". In the other hand, there are too wide to be considered as a Pompei Type, but i'm not friend to close typologies.

Probably the disaparition of the guttering are asociated with the shorter point of the Pompei, because it's more dificult to cut the wooden part of the scabbard with that shorter point.

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

My understanding is that the Mainz style usually had full-length guttering (except possibly for those with a complete metal facing that wrapped around the edges), while the Pompeii type usually did not. So to me, #45 is just a regular plainish Mainz scabbard, while 36 and 37 are Pompeii throats--or possibly spatha throats. I don't see any real need for added guttering on those 2, but some depictions do seem to show Pompeii scabbards with complete guttering.

Valete,

Matthew

[Robert]

Actually, Miks describes the Mundblech (top portion of the scabbard fitting) and does not show the whole assembly. The type shown in #45 is more like the "poor mans version", does not have any attached upper decoration except mayby for a decorated plate around the top portion of the scabbard (like the 31, 33 and 34). This assembly is seen in a479, a480 and a481 of plate 27. He describes scabbard fittings here, not full scabbards. Plate A549 of tafel 28 shows a full guttered wide gladius scabbard with decorated mouthpiece, palmeta and inset chape ornament. So to best understand assemblies, it is wise to consult the tables with the pictures of finds which represent full assemblies, instead of only looking at his descrition of characteristics parts.
The book is really excellent, the amount of work involved is staggering and has rocked my understanding of set beliefs in the way Roman swords and scabbards were constructed. I salute Christian Miks for his awesome work in collecting this data.

[Tarbicus]

In the case of scabbards with the net-like fittings, earlier Augustan scabbards had guttering all the way up the scabbard's edge, but later Augustan scabbards had semi guttering. There's a link to a paper on it somewhere on RAT.

[Caballo]

Thanks, guys- appreciate the help. I won't gutter (if thats the verb).

Agree re Miks- awesome. I just wish my German was better than O level (UK's GCSE in new money).

Cheers

Paul