German ß (scharfes S)

[Jona Lendering]

Some ten years ago, there was a spelling reform in Germany, and the ß was -if I understand it correctly- sort of abandoned. If I have understood it correctly, many people felt that this reform was not an improvement, and the character is still in use.

If I write a text, I do not want the reader to be distracted, so I spell words in such a fashion that they do not irritate people. What will cause less distraction: Strasse or Straße? (Etc.)

(The problem of a spelling law that is not generally accepted, BTW, is not unique; the spelling reform of the Dutch language in 1994 resulted in a terrible dictionary that proved that the Dutch and Flemish governments could not explain their own rules. Which is especially problematic for ancient historians, as the word oudhistoricus was not included in the list, so that people started to write it as oud-historicus, which means "former historian". Another blunder was that supernatural beings like God and Christ had to be written with a capital, and the list said Messiah - which is offensive to Jews, who do not believe that the messiah is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity - the Talmud is quite explicit that Bar Kochba as a human being. I should add that the Dutch gov't can not even explain its own fiscal laws.)

[caiusbeerquitius]

The ß ist still in use, but was mostly replaced by a double s.
"Straße" is still fine. ß is used after a long vowel or a diphtong.
See here:
[url:1t8kz89t]http://www.neue-rechtschreibung.de/10regeln.htm[/url]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

How is it pronounced?
As a non German speaker, I immediately say strasse as it is spelled...
But when i see the Straube (sorry I cannot reproduce the symbol)
I think of it as straube, as in Strawberry......

It pays to learn other languages..... :roll:

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Some ten years ago, there was a spelling reform in Germany, and the ß was -if I understand it correctly- sort of abandoned. If I have understood it correctly, many people felt that this reform was not an improvement, and the character is still in use.

its become rare, but not abandoned ... just recently our institute for standardization created for the first time a capital for the ß ... well, it looks basically the same

Another blunder was that supernatural beings like God and Christ had to be written with a capital ...

not all nouns are written in dutch with a capital, like in german? :o I didnt know this.

How is it pronounced?

the same as "ss" (like in Essex, I guess) ... it's the vowel before that is pronounced other
Straße has a long "a" ... Strasse, (which is wrong) would have a short "a"

[Jona Lendering]

its become rare, but not abandoned

So the Spelling Reform was successful... OK, I'll keep that in mind.

not all nouns are written in dutch with a capital, like in german?

No, Dutch nouns are usually left uncapitalized. Exceptions are names of supernatural things (e.g., Supreme Being), institutions of the state (Senate), historical periods (Antiquity - this one was also wrong in that dictionary), nationalities (Russians) etc. It creates interesting cases: a Hamburger is someone from Hamburg, and a hamburger is something you eat. A turk is a potato and a Turk is, well, a Turk. Sort of J.F. Kennedy announcing that he was a sausage ("Ich bin ein Berliner").

[caiusbeerquitius]

So the Spelling Reform was successful... OK, I'll keep that in mind.

I didn´t notice. I use the old spelling. Even at uni or in papers.

Sort of J.F. Kennedy announcing that he was a sausage ("Ich bin ein Berliner").

A sausage? In German a "Berliner" is a hole-less Donut filled with jam. "Krapfen" in Bavaria.

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

I still use the old type of spelling as well, at least in most cases. Otherwise I did it always wrong in old spelling but became correct with the new spelling reform.

As for the ß it is still used when the vocal which follows is pronounced long and not short. But in Switzerland they never use(d) it, they always write/wrote Strasse instead of Straße.

So if you can't type certain German letters you always could use the following

ß = ss
ä = ae
ö = oe
ü = ue

[mcbishop]

How is it pronounced?

the same as "ss" (like in Essex, I guess) ... it's the vowel before that is pronounced other
Straße has a long "a" ... Strasse, (which is wrong) would have a short "a"

I quite like the idea of the concept of Eßex ;-) Difficult to fathom the reasoning behind Rißtissen, though, although I did hear that place names were an exception to the rule(s).

Mike Bishop

[caiusbeerquitius]

In Rißtissen it is so, because in dialect it originally had a long "i" in the beginning.

[Octavianvs]

A sausage? In German a "Berliner" is a hole-less Donut filled with jam. "Krapfen" in Bavaria.

MMMMM Donut

i mostly use th eold spelling i guess from mostly habit, sometimes the new just does not look right. Someone had told me that the change was made for those with other keyboards can spell German since they dont have the proper letters

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

:lol: ... to confuse things even more: the (hole-less) donut is called "Berliner" only by non-native Berliners and most of the rest of Germany. Native Berliners call(ed) it a "Pfannkuchen" (pancake). which is funny in so far as in turn a "Pfannkuchen" is a (flat) pancake to almost the entire rest of Germany. Berliners again in turn call this flat cake an "Eierkuchen" (means literally omelette, but is a pancake).

not bad, eh?

uh, well, lingual culture ... :roll: ;-) )

I quite like the idea of the concept of Eßex ;-) ) Difficult to fathom the reasoning behind Rißtissen, though, although I did hear that place names were an exception to the rule(s).

yep, names were left untouched regardless of rules ... in case of Essex, the ss was actually correct, as the initial e is a short vowel.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks Carsten!

[Jona Lendering]

A sausage? In German a "Berliner" is a hole-less Donut filled with jam. "Krapfen" in Bavaria.

:oops: Yes, of course...

[caiusbeerquitius]

Ah, I didn´t want to lecture, Jona, I meant: "There is a sausage called Berliner in America? Like "Braunschweiger" (Leberwurst)"

only by non-native Berliners and most of the rest of Germany.

Well, the whole of south Germany calls them "Krapfen", areawise this is half the country. :roll:

[john m roberts]

I don't know about a sausage called a Berliner, but here in the States we have the Frankfurter and the Wiener, both of them used to make the all-American hot dog. Only, in New York they don't say hot dog, they refer to the whole concoction as a frankfurter, even if it's made with a wiener. But small weiners sold in cans (tins, for you Brits) packed in gelatin, are called "Vienna sausages."
Has this thread gone OT or what?