Battle-line rotation during the combat

[Q. Vipsanivs Praetextatvs]

hock:

[Mitra]

Dear Mitra

All right, is useless for me to discuss with a dull mind and closed as yours.

Sure i'm bergamasco as origin

You have reason and all we wrong, considering that only you are the depositary of the correct methodology to face a discussion, only you own the methodology to find the truth.

No I think the copyright is of others before me.

You are here the best on the forum, because you are a researcher (therefore more educated) and me only a woman that speaks.

In reality i'm analist-programmer

Truly your idea it is not the problem, it is your and you are free to think as you prefer like the others, that it is not the problem, the problem is to affirm that theiy are "without doubts" the historical reality.

Considering that you write for the SISMA, of sure you know more than me... :roll:

That i know (very little respect a true professional), also the methodology, come from reading, questions and doubts. If you read my past forum of previous year in other italian forum or newsgroups you can see i changed my ideas over much arguments, following new readings and entering in the deep of ideas.

You still have to answer to my question: what did they make the last files of a centuria, considering that they rarely fought? I don't have Xenofont under hand, I'm sorry it, I ignore... :roll:

He affirms in the memorabilia, Xenophon affirm that "Your analogy is perfect, Socrates,â€

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Then it's useless to continue the topic, considering that Mitra has said the Rotatio or Mutatio ordinis didn't exist. I go...

Velite,
don't go away. Many people read this thread and like to see all and different perspectives, so they can make up their minds in the end. It's just part of scientific way to critizise a new hypothesis as strong as one can. It's not about winning the thread ;-) )
Lastly this is a topic that can't be finally decided by looking at the textual sources (at least those we have so far). All we can do is suppose that somehow people in the front ranks were replaced, because full-scale battle over longer distances is virtually impossible from a medical point of view. The metabolism of even the strongest individual would simply collaps after some time.

So I think we can be pretty sure that replacement happened but presumably wasn't strictly organised as in HBO's Rome. I just doubt it would work so nicely in a constant hail of slingshot and arrows, let alone natural obstacles. As others already have pointed out the formation would be dented and bulged at some places more dense and others less. May be the closest thing today is a huge demonstrating crowd pressing against a wavering police line. Some individuals fall back and others rush forward. It's kind of self-organizing.

Mitra\\n[quote]He affirms in the memorabilia, Xenophon affirm that "Your analogy is perfect, Socrates,â€

[Magnus]

Velite, keep it civil please. Name calling is not required. If someone doesn't sway to your side of a discussion, that's fine. It would be a boring planet if we all thought the same way.

[Mitra]

I'm not sure if we should go with Xenophon here. IIRC, he desribes phalanx vs. phalanx warfare. A complete different affair IMHO.

all the best,

Sure, but the original question of this answer is why it is necessary the have multiple ranks and this is a response given directly by a source.

[Velite]

All we can do is suppose that somehow people in the front ranks were replaced, because full-scale battle over longer distances is virtually impossible from a medical point of view. The metabolism of even the strongest individual would simply collaps after some time.

I totally agree. And if Mitra doesn't understand this, I surrender me.
To my point of wiew this has to be the base from which to make depart the discussion.

So I think we can be pretty sure that replacement happened but presumably wasn't strictly organised as in HBO's Rome.

I never said this.

Velite, keep it civil please. Name calling is not required. If someone doesn't sway to your side of a discussion, that's fine. It would be a boring planet if we all thought the same way.

I don't absolutely pretend to be right, or that all are in agreement with me.
I ask only that Mitra doesn't deny the evidences. Nobody can fight for 15-20 mins or for more time without being ever replaced.

Valete

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Conan the barbarian could fight for 5 hours without being replaced! i saw it with my own eyes!

:lol:

But seriousely, i think there was some form of rotation. i know from experience that even a trained soldier in full armor has difficulty fighting for a long time.. however we also must not forget that many classical baatkes were pitched battles with a lot of pushing and pulling by either side and ranks and not always ended in total carnage.

So, it must be feasible that legionaries when not involved in the actual slicing and dicing had moments of rest in between the action.

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I too see Xenophon as something of an irrelevance here.
The Romans rotated, all in a file would be comrades and the best would not always be first and last...it would vary throughout the century...etc
IMHO

[Octavianvs]

I mention 15-30 minutes for fighting simply as moment of time not a definite time. we know this romans trained with double weight sword and schild. we know this trained like this VERY often. we know that roman soldiers ( depending on time ) were either very busy or not. so if your always fighting and building you will be better shape more endurance that soldiers who stay mostly in garrison and do not much more than patrol. so in one time period soldier may only be able to fight for 5-10 minutes while another period the time fighting could be longer.

as already pointed out and is forum rules there doesnt need to be any name calling and personal attacks on each other. Sometimes when we write we sometimes take things the wrong way or even personally there are many wonderful people here and I believe that sometimes it is fustration to make ourself understood. All information is valued and welcome as it is our belief that all knowledge will lead to some wisdom. we simply try to get to th ebottom of th eanswer. we have seen that people like Velite/ Rita, Hibernicus/ Sean, Quintus/ Matthew who all have hands on practical information which is important to understanding and getting closer to teh truth. The written sources give us some idea as well.

[Wander]

Xenophon's statement, while it applied to the Greek phalanx, doesn't sound like a bad idea for a STARTING position. If I were in charge, I might line up my century with veterans in the front and rear, and rotate them forward as the fighting progressed. The enemy always faces a soldier who's relatively fresh, and the wounded get pulled from the line and get whatever treatment we can give them.

In fact, I'd probably drill them repeatedly on replacement maneuvers in the press of combat, both with the front line falling back between the second (when there's no room) and with the second line stepping forward between the first (when we're pressing them back). I might have the third or fourth row throw their pila during the changeover to keep the enemy from taking an advantage.

This could be worked either by a full row at a time, on a signal from the cornicen, or row by row, as the front man feels he needs relief.

Yes, it's all theory. But that's how I'd do it.

[Velite]

Sometimes when we write we sometimes take things the wrong way or even personally there are many wonderful people here and I believe that sometimes it is fustration to make ourself understood. All information is valued and welcome as it is our belief that all knowledge will lead to some wisdom.

I agree with you

Vale Optime

[Mitra]

I ask only that Mitra doesn't deny the evidences.

I don't deny the evidences (you report me one with historical validity?) i contest:

1 - the test conditions: the psicological and mass conditions for recreate a true battle not exist. The same medical proof many report here, tell also that the fight or flight condition alterate in the human being the phisical and psicological status. Exist case of policemen that have fought for several minutes with a gun hole in the breast or hearth.

2 - Put aside completly the sources/document; this is not as historical research work.

3 - Found a theory, no research possible alternative: the battle lull have the same pratical effect of rank rotations, and more link in the sources.

4 - Write phrase like "no doubts", and transform theories in "Gospels" on the basis that in simulated (but without all the condtions) battlefield proof they works.

[Wander]

Mitra: You wrote:

3 - Found a theory, no research possible alternative: the battle lull have the same pratical effect of rank rotations, and more link in the sources.

The battle lull would have the same effect ONLY if you rotated the troops when they reformed -- and that's one of the possibilities we've been discussing. If they rested in the same positions, then the rear lines would still be fresh, unused (and possibly a row of your best troops wasted back there!), and the front lines only a little rested.

I'm not claiming there's evidence; people have presented quotes both favoring and against it. I'm saying it seems like a logical way to get the most from your soldiers. In effect, to maximize your chance of winning -- and I don't know any generals who don't want to win their battles -- especially while preserving as much of their army as possible intact.

[Caius Fabius]

1. Please, everyone be nice to each other. It is very difficult when trying to communicate in a second language, so give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

2. It is an interesting topic.

3. I am unaware of anyone who frequents this forum who has fought in actual combat as a Roman soldier with gladius and scutum, with hundreds of fellow supporting and attacking. You aren't going to die in SCA or needlefelt combat, unless something goes really wrong, BUT you can get some of the feel of how different techniques of line substitution could happen. No single answer seems to preclude all other answers, yet..... :lol:

[Magnus]

Just as a side note but may shed some light on human endurance...Mixed Martial Art fighters, most notably in the UFC have been recorded to fight for 25 minutes. That's 5 minutes per round, for 5 rounds with one minute of rest in between. Granted, they're not wearing armour, but it's not un-feasible for the human body that is in top shape to accomplish incredible feats. Especially when the mind is driven to do so.