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Varus Headquarters found at last ?
#1
Hi,
.... seems a bit too late ( ...too early ? :wink: ) for April's Follies, but in this "little note" I found here:
http://www.welt.de/welt_print/arti22990 ... d_zog.html
a certain Daniel Berenger claims that the main camp of Varus seems to have been found at Porta Westfalica-Barkhausen (near Minden).
Is this claim "archeological trigger-happiness" again or of really substance ?

Greez

Simplex
Siggi K.
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#2
Quote:Is this claim "archeological trigger-happiness" again or of really substance ?
I can not judge the finds, but the site has long been assumed to have been the place where Varus started his march to disaster. The evidence is

(a)
that at Anreppen, the road continues to the east - we do not know to what place, but there must have been at least one Roman settlement east or northeast of Anreppen. Medieval roads (the famous Hellweg) lead to Hameln, Minden, and Porta Westfalica.

(b)
At Hedemunden, where the Weser begins, a storage was found; as a consequence, there must be a large base downstream.

Finds at Porta Westfalica come as no surprise. I am looking forward to hear more about them!
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#3
Hi Jona,
....yes, there have always been assumptions, that there has to be a roman camp in this area -- mostly based on reasoning about strategical benefits from this location. I'm not quite sure if I recall this correctly that even Mommsen wrote about this. (Pardon me, Jona, but I'm teporaryly at a loss where to look for such a statement in my archive.)
The press-releases about this findings stress the fact that there has a roman gold-coin already been found as far back as 1950.
The "officials" state that the excavation site may be as large as more then 16 ha, with a first partition of 2000 square meters to be excavated this year and even more in 2009, because they have to speed up the proceeding as there are buildings to be erected after the end of the excavations.
My uneasiness with that press-release bases on the fact
1) that I got the news a week late Cry
2) that the officials seem (for my part) a bit unspecific about the evidences they seem to have for dating that site around about 10 AD. :?:
One is pretty fast attributing the findings to Varus, aren't they ? :wink:
I mean, especially if you compare this to the fact how long it took to become common knowledge that a certain P.Q. Varus seemingly had been one of the military tribuns of LEG XIX at Dangstetten. 8)

Back to the topic.
For further reading :
(All in German, my apologizes for that ... and only for THAT :wink: )

http://www.lwl.org/pressemitteilungen/m ... .php?18589
http://www.epoc.de/artikel/964242
(More or less copies of the first official press-release on Aug. 07, 2008)

A bit more details are given here in general:

http://www.die-glocke.de/gl/cgi/news/sh ... hp?id=7967
http://www.mt-online.de/mt/lokales/minden/?cnt=2507465

A bit more information about earlier finding in that area:

http://mt-online.de/mt/lokales/kultur/? ... nt=2520688
http://www.vlothoer-anzeiger.de/va/loka ... nt=2509668

The most "concise" essay on all that seems to be:

http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2008/08/13/920847.html
(Hamburgians do know their duties !)

And -- since pictures do tell stories:

http://www.mindenertageblatt.de/mto2004 ... index.html

But, to be frank I'm kinda like Muddy Waters here: I just can't be satisfied .... :roll:
Any more information on that stuff would be welcome.
(Like "Number 5" used to say: "Input","Input" ....... Smile )

Greez & Nightynight

Simplex
Siggi K.
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#4
The finds are not really spectacular yet, I agree, but as one of those researchers says: a millstone is not a German find - this suggests a Roman settlement.

I just mailed a professor and a journalist who may know more; if their response adds anything to what's mentioned in the articles above (and they are at liberty to say anything), I'll post it. The prof may have the contacts to go there, and I have a camera, so who knows... I'm in Bonn next Thursday and can always catch a train to Minden.

Meanwhile, "Auf der Lake" is THIS MEADOW.

Now off to bed for what no doubt will be a sleepless night - the excitement!
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#5
wow, thats good news ... if true.
Quote: if their response adds anything to what's mentioned in the articles above (and they are at liberty to say anything), I'll post it
yes, please. Smile
[size=85:2j3qgc52]- Carsten -[/size]
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#6
I have not been able to go there yet, but there are increasingly concrete plans. The professor I mentioned above has made contact with the archaeologist involved, who has confirmed what the newspapers say. There is more, but I do not know if I am at liberty to mention that here.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#7
Hey, regardless of the speculation, and also of what can ultimately be divined from the site, it still looks rather fun!
Lochinvar/Ewan Carmichael
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#8
Tadaaaa........ update !
The excavations at Porta Westfalica-Barkhausen are on "winter-halt" since Dec. 15th.

According to my favourite Blog "Archaeonews" :

[url:jthh0m02]http://www.vlothoer-anzeiger.de/va/lokales/porta_westfalica/?sid=56c6f55a69056e9e6fc2de61bed14c79&cnt=2775773[/url]
(In German)

...the site is definitely a marching camp (although the site was used quite frequently !) ..... and NOT a headquarter or the likes.

Greez

Simplex
Siggi K.
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#9
THANKS
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#10
was he not originally based at the fort at Xanten before the infamously doomed march?? Wells, 2003, The Battle that stopped Rome
certainly argues this... ????
VOTUM SOLVIT LIBENS MERITO
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MOGONS
Adam Parker
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#11
Quote:Wells, 2003, The Battle that stopped Rome certainly argues this... ????
Well, a book that invents a Twenty-Sixth legion... how seriously can you take that? I am afraid it will be reprinted this year.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#12
Quote:T...the site is definitely a marching camp (although the site was used quite frequently !) ..... and NOT a headquarter or the likes.

I like that 'definitely' - very few temporary camps match the surviving descriptions of marching camps in terms of the nature of the defences (Arosfa Gareg being one of the few that spring to mind offhand) and they seem disappointed that they only have 20 items from their temporary camp. Twenty!!! Somebody needs a slapping with a soggy halibut and a quick explanation of how rare finds are from temporary camps! There also seems to be a measure of confusion over the whole hiberna/aestiva question, in that they seem to be expecting substantial structures in order for it to qualify as a campaign camp.

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#13
....Update, baby !!!!
(...and "a little bit of rowing back" in progress ??)
Overview of the articles in "Mindener tageblatt" on the topic "Roman Camp" :
http://mt-online.de/mt/lokales/blickpun ... arkhausen/
(Where would I be without this here little Forum to post my humble opinions and "Archeones-blogspot" supplying me the "ammunition" for it! ?! :roll: )
O.K. --- I'll try to summarize the latest news as by the Mindener Tageblatt.
Dr. Werner Best from the local "Landship Authorities" landschaftsverband Westfalen Lippe (LWL)
1. Findings spanning 7000 years of human history. Amongst them findings from stoneage or roman times.
2. Total excavation area 25000 sqmetres.
3. Supporting Society Roman Camp Barkhausen Porta Westfalica founded. Ultimate goal : Permanent presentation of the findindings on site.
4. Pointed at links betwenn the "securely assumed" finding of a marching camp dated between 11 to 16 AD at the excavation site and the scientifically sincere doubts about the location of the Varian Battle at Kalkriese, which posed special regards from both the madia as well as the public on this site.
5. Excavations have been going on since July 8th 2008 when a honorary private prospector found a coin and a fibula. After geomagnetic prospection 3 minor parts of the area have been opened, 3900 sqmetres have been archeologically excavated in the process.
Scientists do differ between Finds and Findings ("Funde" und "Befunde" ??). Finds are objects or parts thereof. Findings are e.g. traces in the ground/colourings out of human activities.
159 Findings, 193 prospection finds, 17 urn burials and 4 makeshift (field) baking ovens have been discovered so far.
The general timeline of the finds and findings spans from the stone age to the 30years war
The grave field with 17 urn and other (similar) burial dates from the bronze age.
.........
6. It is assumed safe a roman presence during times of occupation at this site, albeit not yet in which form.
(Translator: Sic !!!! :oops: )
The findigs of a trench during electromagnetic prospection has turned out to be a one for communication cables during English occupation. (Translator: Aha--- therefore so many archeologocal "afficionados amongst english mitary personel -- three hoorays on every occaison for Maj. Clunn, though ! :wink: )
Such a findings would have urged the assumption of a fortified roman camp.
Having occupied most likely a much larger space than the area under scrutiny, the diggings may have missed the boundaries of a fortification, still.
7. From roman times the finds are numerous sandal-pins , parts of a small mask, an iron tent-peg, a shard from an edge of a grroved mug and 2 pieces of a small whinstone grinding-mill a customary piece of roman military equipment.
The origin of the whinstone is still under research.
8. The four roman baking ovens support the assumption that these was a place of rest not of "just passin' throu' "
9. It is seen possible that the site is right on a line of supply (Translator: or trade ?) used by the Roamns or others (Ey, Dr. Best ?? --- wottdyermeenbyziss ??? :? ).

Simplex

Finders of mistakes may be keepers.
Siggi K.
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#14
Quote:
zakhx150:5giksnyb Wrote:Wells, 2003, The Battle that stopped Rome certainly argues this... ????
Well, a book that invents a Twenty-Sixth legion... how seriously can you take that? I am afraid it will be reprinted this year.

Possibly a typo/printers error?

According to a book I read about Boudicca recently, Hannibal committed suicide in
Britannia!! :lol: But I am guessing it was a transcription error..... :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#15
Brittania, eh? Well, that would be a pretty far travel for a Carthagenian, just to commit suicide. Heck, he could have done that closer to home, you know?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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