Greek re-enactors - how do you display?

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:

I would say cross your fingers and it may happen one day,but crossing our fingers will achieve nothing. It's in our hands...

Marathon 2011 ....??????? D

[PMBardunias]

against are the natural instincts of people, the fact that Hoplites were mostly amateurs throughout most of their history, and that for true "crowd" effects to occur, a confined space is required; not to mention that a 'column' is a far better formation than a long relatively thin line for such tactics ( perhaps Thebans may have approached this, though generally, of course, for the most part columns serve 'morale' purposes rather than 'physical' ones...as has been discussed elsewhere on the forum)....hence I have considerable doubts about your hypothesis, as you know !!

I will eventually convert you. I reading a book on Torquemada right now to pick up pointers :wink:

I'm sure most of the reenactors involved in these things would qualify as "amateurs" as well. It is clear at least from the testament above and others I have heard over the years that the generation of these crowd forces is possible within relatively shallow ranks (6-8 at least). It should also be clear that confinement is not a problem, since the men on the outer edges of the group must provide a firm enough boundary in the case of reenactors.

Perhaps I should mention that many crowds that cause asphyxia are not really "confined" laterally. The classic example is people in a fire attempting to force their way out of a door. There is a solid wall ahead, much like an enemy phalanx, but the crowd itself forms a lateral boundary. Evidently from the experience of reenactors even though the phalanx is not rushing to a single point source like a door, the outer edges still form an effective boundary to lateral dispersal. I had anticipated this, since the direction of pushing is largely directly ahead into the other phalanx, it should take little in the way of force to form a lateral boundary.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to suggest a column, even the Theban phalanxes were rectangles that were wider than they were deep. You still have to guard against envelopment in some manner (to me this is why the Theban tactic is so short lived). I myself am unsure of the dynamics as ranks get very deep, but it is probable that the ability to coordinate movement towards the enemy phalanx surely decreases with depth. Even in shallow phalanxes something like a lifetime of group dancing is needed to fascilitate synchronized group movement. The rear men in such deep phalanxes probably acted more like a mobile wall, adding inertia to resist being pushed back as opposed to aiding in the forward push.

[PMBardunias]

However it is well attested that every phalanx's greatest fear was flanking. Thus it's logically explained why deep formations were not favored. (They were,it just took time for the evolution to allow it)

Your allies didn't like it either, since your depth made the wholw line shorter- Thebes' allies tried to limit her to 16 ranks by treaty, but she broke it. It is clear to me, and perhaps only to me, that Xenophon is telling us in the Cyropaedia how to overcome "over-deep" phalanxes in the theban model. His belittling of phalanx depth should be taken in the context of such too-deep formations.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B wrote:

It is clear to me, and perhaps only to me, that Xenophon is telling us in the Cyropaedia how to overcome "over-deep" phalanxes in the theban model. His belittling of phalanx depth should be taken in the context of such too-deep formations.

Not just you, Paul !!!!......I think it is as plain as a pike staff that Xenophon (a professional Hoplite General, let it not be forgotten ! ) is contemptuous of Theban tactics, and like the Duke of Wellington, appreciates that when all factors are taken into account, a linear formation should always beat a deeper one, and that a deeper formation is really only the resort of an inferior force.
He clearly does not believe that the two major Spartan defeats were due to superior Theban tactics, but rather other factors.....indeed in the Cyropaedia, the "Persians" are but thinly disguised Lacedaemonians, and the "Egyptians", Thebans. Xenophon even explains how to beat Pelopidas' flanking manoevre.......

[Peter Raftos]

Not a phalanx but fairly typical crush in reenactor combat with small groups. See:[url:244r7hzy]http://nvg.org.au/gallery/albums/miklagard/Armidale_1998_b.sized.jpg[/url]
I wasn't there for that friendly stoush but a year or so later a good friend and I were involved in a public combat display where we and others played very ...um friskily. We charged and crashed shields a couple of times and the crowd roared as the melee continued. But instead of doing our usual safety routine where you fake the charge and sort of walk around each other we did it for real -just to make a louder noise. The crowd loved alright. Especialy when the shield cracked together and his slid up the surface of mine tilted it on the arm strap, and lodged in my mouth like an oversize cookie - cracking off 7 teeth at the gumline. The kids loved the blood and wanted to see it all again. Playing like that does generate a lot of force.

[PMBardunias]

Not just you, Paul !!!!......

Whew! :wink:

I think it is as plain as a pike staff that Xenophon (a professional Hoplite General, let it not be forgotten ! ) is contemptuous of Theban tactics, and like the Duke of Wellington, appreciates that when all factors are taken into account, a linear formation should always beat a deeper one, and that a deeper formation is really only the resort of an inferior force.

I agree to a point, and that point depends on the weapons system. Just as Wellington would not have advocated a single line of men, Xenophon is concious of the need for more than a few ranks of men in a phalanx. His speaking against depth (they can't bring their weapons to bear) has been evoked by those attempting to deny an active role for the rear ranks of a phalanx, but when we realize that he is specifically addressing the 25-50 deep monstrosities of his day, this becomes a weaker arguement.

He clearly does not believe that the two major Spartan defeats were due to superior Theban tactics, but rather other factors.....indeed in the Cyropaedia, the "Persians" are but thinly disguised Lacedaemonians, and the "Egyptians", Thebans. Xenophon even explains how to beat Pelopidas' flanking manoevre.......

I don't think he would discount that the tactic worked at Leuktra, though he clearly believes that other factors conspired to make it work. I think he views the super-deep phalanx as a "trick," and this is why the other factors are needed to pull it off. I don't think he believed the famed oblique line ay Leuktra to have been a tactic as much as a consequence of the Theban charge (and I agree).

All the hoopla aside, it is clear that this tactic did not in fact work at Mantinea, essentially a draw, as I think the great loss of Theban officers and Epaminondas shows.

[PMBardunias]

Especialy when the shield cracked together and his slid up the surface of mine tilted it on the arm strap, and lodged in my mouth like an oversize cookie - cracking off 7 teeth at the gumline.

You really need an aspis! :wink:

[Peter Raftos]

:lol: Have placed an order with Dave Armstrong of the Sydney Ancients. Much cheaper than more dental costs.

[hoplite14gr]

Much adoo about Leuctra and Delio is forgoten!
Pagondas had better troops and numerical superiority and he chose to deploy 25 ranks deep in the Theban sector.
Probably both Theban Generals employd even gymitae (psiloi) in the rear ranks.

I our file versos file experiments (6 vs 3) the deeper file pushed the thiner file backwards.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Probably both Theban Generals employd even gymitae (psiloi) in the rear ranks.

It is possible that even non-combatants like baggage carriers were in the mass behind the theban phalanx at leuktra. They and psiloi don't actually have to fight or lend their pushing to the forward motion of the thebans, they just have to be in the way of the backward movement of the theban phalanx and make the whole mass harder to push back. This would be quite an advantage and fit with what we know- that the battle went back and forth for some time. For the spartans it would be like pushing "uphill", every time they push the thebans back it becomes harder as they go. Even if the Thebans were less able to push the spartans back, they would still wear them down in time.

[Pericles of Rhodes]

After asking around the group I have found someone who seems to have had a similar experience to me (at the same event) to add to your theory Paul.

I'm Paul H from Saeberts Folc I think the theory may hold water. I was in a boar snout/genral press at kelmarsh with between 20 - 30 warriors the problem I had was having the wind knocked out of me with the shock of the impact then not being able to get a proper breath back afterwards due to the press it made pushing diffcult. I was on the front of the formation and fighting with hand weapons (sword / axe ) was very limited.

I also have handled an aspis & dori (spear) in the hoplite associations drill when I attened the hoplite festival in london, in thinking back the curve of the aspis would also protect the sheild arm from being crushed in the press, something that a flat sheild doesn't do and it's easy in the confusion to get your arm caught between your sheild and the sheild of the warrior next to you which is very painful, thankfuly there was only 20 -30 vike on one side an similar number of ECW pike man on the other, otherwise the injury might have been more serious as it was a large part of my elbow was bruised for a couple of weeks and I still have a bit of a scar.

If you like I'll add more experiences as I receive them.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Wow! Excellent! If one of those small not-so-agressive as the real ones battles can be such an experiance,imagine what a real battle could be like. pressure,difficulty of breath and the shape of the aspis all have been reported by this man! More info would be most interesting.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Good stuff George. I had not considered the protection of the elbow itself. Keep them coming!

[Servio Caro (Javier Sánc]

Very interesting George.

A strong othismos can be very painful if your oponent is strong enough, and don't forget the head! many of the hits you receive from your oponent goes to the head because it is the part of the body you can heat, the rest is covered by the shield. So it is important to use helmets with good cheekpieces like corinthian, that cover all the face.

regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Glad it’s of help Paul! I found your article very interesting, do I have your permission to share a copy with other interested members of my society? It may make the theory clearer for them.

Very interesting George.

A strong othismos can be very painful if your oponent is strong enough, and don't forget the head!

Hi Javier!

Yes, don’t I know it!

Many re-enactment groups do not allow head blows (but still wear helmets) one of my groups does and one doesn’t. Generally during big battle style shows especially when different groups are involved head shots are not allowed. In a real hoplite battle though this is a good point although it has always confused me why there is so few examples and references to thigh and foot armour compared with the amount of chest armour, though a few do exist. You would think the feet and legs would be too vulnerable. The same with the Romans; I have often thought how heavily armoured legionaries are from head to waist but their arms and legs are almost never protected by armour and are often exposed from the shield and their feet are never protected! An obvious target? It seems strange to me!