Shining/Polished/New vs Worn/Weathered/Used Armour

[Matthew Amt]

Gloss and glamor IS survival!! Looking good on a battlefield was an enormous psychological advantage. We know that sometimes the enemy army formed up for battle, the Romans formed up opposite them, and the enemy looked them over and said, "Nope, forget it!", and left! Warfare was all about looking good and feeling like a god, and you wanted to be sure that when you did something courageous, folks SAW you do it! All those bits of brass on a lorica are virtually useless, except as bling. The hinges are not necessary, but they got bigger and fancier with every "upgrade".

Officers liked men in shiny armor because they could keep the buggers busy by sending them off to clean their armor. The men liked shiny armor because it looked good! THAT was its practical logical purpose! Don't keep trying to compare the past to a modern camouflaged military or a black-leather-clad biker gang. It was DIFFERENT.

Valete,

Matthew

[Hibernicus]

Here's an OLD Legio IX addage:

Commitment To Excellence

If an army looks good and looks like it knows what its doing it has won half the fight. The enemy now has a doubt about himself, a hesitation. If an army is well disciplined it can win over superior numbers. And, if it is well skilled it has already won. Fighting becomes a formality.

[M. Demetrius]

All those bits of brass on a lorica are virtually useless, except as bling. The hinges are not necessary, but they got bigger and fancier with every "upgrade".

Besides that, there's no metallurgical benefit from putting brass or copper on steel, it just makes for more rust on the steel. An equal thickness steel hinge, as surely the Romans new, is stronger than brass, but if the brass is strong enough, they probably used it because it's easier to work, and looks "better". If it were only about practicality, plain, rectangular hinges punched out of scrap lorica girdle straps would be perfectly functional. Boring, but probably better in the end. We know they liked shiny brass, because that's what they used.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

A two denarii to the discussion from Livy. The Samnites,

besides their many preparations for the field, made their army to glitter with new decorations of their armour.

They had their shields embossed with gold and silver, the helmets adorned with plumes, etc.:

The Romans had been apprised of these splendid accouterments, and had been taught by their commanders, that "a soldier ought to be rough; not decorated with gold and silver, but placing his confidence in his sword. That matters of this kind were in reality spoil rather than armour; glittering before action, but soon becoming disfigured amid blood and wounds. That the brightest ornament of a soldier was valour; that all those trinkets would follow victory, and that those rich enemies would be valuable prizes to the conquerors, however poor."

Livy, 9.40.

[Matthew Amt]

Fascinating passage! But it kinda seems like a lot of legionaries weren't reading Livy...

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

Hey, Matt, give a legionary plunder money and access to a silversmith, and you know the outcome of that exchange. :wink:

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Thanks for all your imput guys,

The passage about livy was particularly good. I suppose he is being practical, but like has been said, having a nice shinysuit of armour does give a certain psychological edge.

[Sean Manning]

I think the quote from Livy probably has more to do with Greek and Roman moralism than how Roman soldiers actually behaved. Poor but manly Greeks/Romans conquering the decadent oriental enemy, and all that (and it serves the Greeks right that by Livy's day they were decadent easterners in Roman eyes). Still, the Strategicon says the same thing about a dull army beating a glittering one, so maybe there was a real debate among generals.

[Quintius Clavus]

You have to remember when Livy was writing. Augustus was emperor and he was trying to restore the "traditional discipline" of the army after all the greed and what-not of the civil wars period. Livy is reflecting that Augustan idealogy.
Augustus did not approve of his great uncle's practice of rewarding his troops with gold and silver decorated arms and armor. Discouraging that kind of ostentation would also restrain soldiers' greed, which was very much on Augustus' mind.
This is, I believe, what Livy and other (later) writers had in mind - Roman soldiers ideally should not be glittering due to gold and silver on their armor. That was something "decadent Greeks and orientals" did.
Interestingly, the lorica segmentata collar plate found on the site of the Bank of London (IIRC) is not corroded or rusty like the Corbridge hoard armor. Instead, the iron is quite shiny and the copper alloy is "golden", i.e. brass-colored. There is a color picture of it in "Roman Military Equipment" by Bishop & Coulston (I think).

[A_Volpe]

That the brightest ornament of a soldier was valour; that all those trinkets would follow victory,

Sorry, I read that as saying "don't bling up Before a battle, pimping your armor is for *after* the battle"

Livy can say what the 'ideal' and 'proper' ways are of a soldiers, but sometimes soldiers ignore what's the 'ideal'.

soldiers and warriors take 'prizes' after a battle to remember their glory and valour from the battle...that's been happening for a really long time.

There is also that statment from H. R. Emperor Maximillian c 1500's regarding the Landsknecht - that they live such a dretch life and see horrors of war as part of their profession, we can at least allow them the outlandish clothing they wear to 'brighten' their otherwise dark life as a soldier. Romans don't have much to shake at compared to Landsknecht in terms of clothing, bling and pimping it out.

That and the uniforms of the American Civil War, esspecially those of State Militias and Zouave units...Uniforms that serve no purpose other than to look totally awesome on the field, in town, wherever the party is.
Even when the top brass sent out orders for federal uniforms, some units still kept or went with custom uniforms. Salem Light Infantry and 5th New York are two that come to mind, both having several uniforms during their deployments.

Besides, I think polishing brass and such decor is easier than polishing a severed enemy's head...or ears...or something gross like that. :wink: