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Will The Real Legio XIV Please Stand Up!
#1
I've been looking into depictions of the historic Legio XIV / XIIII to determine if it has the only known Legion scutum emblem.

This led to a search for depictions of known LEG XIV shields

So far this is the only depiction of a known LEG XIV shield emblem that I've found:
----- images from Roman Army Talk image database
http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/Gn. ... LEGXIV.jpg
http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/Gn. ... tclsup.jpg

One gentleman states that the following image is of a probable LEG XIV shield as it's from a monument in Mainz, a place where XIV had been located.
-----images from MC BISHOP
http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/LEG ... .miles.jpg
http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/LEG ... closup.jpg

Modern interpretations of the LEG XIV shield emblem employ an angular lightning bolt, but both the "aquilifer" and "probable" scutums show wavy lightning bolts.

Are there other depictions of the real LEG XIV shield emblem?

Modern interpretations of the LEG XIV umbo use the standard rectangular umbo but the umbo on the "probable" scutum is obviously not a rectangle and the umbo on the "aquilifer's" umbo sure looks to be almost square

The there's this: The image of Publius Flavoleius Cordus, a known ordinary soldier of LEG XIV. He is carrying a flat oval shield!
......images from Roman Army Talk image database
http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/%20 ... Cordus.jpg

The Aquilifer's shield looks more like a Fayun style shield.

The "probable" scutum is clearly not a rectangle. Another soldier in the grouping in image 5 on http://romanmilitaryequipment.co.uk/figures.htm has an elongated oval, another has a scutum that is similar to "probable's" scutum, (items "b" and "c") both with what could be rounded top and bottom edges...? The scutum in item "d" is much more like a rectangle. Is it artistic fudging? .. or an attempt to depict 3 styles of shields in use?

And then there's the shield of Publius.... a flat oval!

Can we be certain of the actual shape of a LEG XIV scutum for ordinary soldiers?
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#2
One possible explanation for differing shield patterns may be changing
equipment styles over time. In modern times equipment for the US Army looks very different in different periods within 100 years. Citing presumed dates to the the pictorial evidence may aid in the discussion.
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#3
Could it be different types of troops in Legio XIV carry different types of shields?
Tiberius Antonius Festus

Bryan Fitch

The Roman Army is on the march trough Texas! :twisted: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" />:twisted:
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#4
Leg XIIII is not the only known period shield design.

The Arch at Orange shows a legionary of II AVG carrying a shield with S shapes in the four quarters of the shields and opposing capricons which were associated with II AVG.

Caius Castricus Victor (Legio I Adiutrix) IIRC has a design depicted on the shield on his grave stone.

There are two designs shown on the column bases at Mainz, the legions based there at the time were LEG XIIII Gemina and Leg I Adiutrix. Trajan's Column also has a shield design very similar in appearance to the one of Victor.

One of the Mainz pedastals (as posted earlier) does bears an uncanny resemblence to the one on Gnaeus Musius' grave stone, even down to the two ansatae.
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#5
Thanks Adrian. Great info!. Im hoping to bring that topic up latter on.

Could this be what a scutum of a 1st C AD miles gregarius should actually look like?

By combining two items:
1) the emblem on the scutum of the Aquilifer, Gn Musius
2) the known shield shape of a common LEG XIV miles gregarius, Publius
Flavoleius Cordus

http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/OVALxivEMBELM.jpg

Pick your own color scheme
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#6
Quote:Thanks Adrian. Great info!. Im hoping to bring that topic up latter on.

Could this be what a scutum of a 1st C AD miles gregarius should actually look like?

By combining two items:
1) the emblem on the scutum of the Aquilifer, Gn Musius
2) the known shield shape of a common LEG XIV miles gregarius, Publius
Flavoleius Cordus

http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/OVALxivEMBELM.jpg

Pick your own color scheme

So are you maintaining the existing Deepeeka/Legio XIIII Scuta Pattern interpretation does NOT fit the evidence you have located so far? Was the Scutum pattern published in a book and you believe the evidence was misinterpeted or did they cite something you have not found a photo of yet?
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#7
Quote:Thanks Adrian. Great info!. Im hoping to bring that topic up latter on.

Could this be what a scutum of a 1st C AD miles gregarius should actually look like?

By combining two items:
1) the emblem on the scutum of the Aquilifer, Gn Musius
2) the known shield shape of a common LEG XIV miles gregarius, Publius
Flavoleius Cordus

http://rlqm.com/LEG.XIV.Scutum.Info/OVALxivEMBELM.jpg

Pick your own color scheme

Your guess is as good as anyone else's looking at the grave stones Hib...suppose the answer is a "yes" with a small question mark at the end of it.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#8
All these arguments are based on the assumption that there actually were uniform shield devices for each legion. This is IMO far from being a fact at the moment, though.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#9
Christian: .. or uniform shields

John: One gentleman lists two sculptures as evidence for the only known Legio shield emblem, one of which he claims to be probable If there are other LEG XIV depictions I'd sure like to see them!

The lightning bolt on the scutum of Cn Musius is clearly wavy. So is the lightning bolt of the "probable" Mainz sculpture. So why use an angular lightning bolt?

And then why use a 3rd C AD shield shape when you have a clear depiction of two known 1st C AD Leg XIV shield shapes!?!
1) Cn Musius's fayun style scutum
2) The flat oval of Publius Cordus

And to mix this up a bit more: Two of the three semi-cylindrical scutums on the Mainz group look more like curved versions of the Doncaster shield. And the way they're being held suggests, to me, a vertical handgrip.
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#10
I carefully read the Doncaster excavation report, and IMO it is far from clear whether the shield was flat or corved, or whether it actually had a vertical or horizontal grip. Most of what the archaeologists describe is interpretation of the find, not actual information gathered from the find.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#11
Quote:And to mix this up a bit more: Two of the three semi-cylindrical scutums on the Mainz group look more like curved versions of the Doncaster shield. And the way they're being held suggests, to me, a vertical handgrip.

There is no way you would want to march with a curved (semi-cylindrical)shield with a vertical grip! Think about it! :wink:


I have seen and handled the Doncaster shield remains.

The flange of the boss is flat and there is no shaping to the edge of the 'cup' portion therefore suggesting a flat board. (Unlike the bosses from Nijmegen and Aalen).

Basically Buckland suggested a 4ft x 2ft board (consistent with the shield cover dimensions from Valkenberg)

Then we have the off-set position of the boss. It isn't placed centrally!

The grip bar is Far too long to be a horizontal grip IMO, given that the evidence from the boss suggests a flat board.

[Image: danumhorizontal-1.jpg]
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#12
Great info Adrian!

I have fought sport combat with vertical grip shields.. round, flat oval, semi-cylindrical oval and rectangle, and the long grip strengthens the shield board... something some have found useful as vertical grip combat is far more aggressive than horizontal grip.
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
Reply
#13
Couldn't the shields on the Mainz column bases just be curved rectangles, shown with a little incorrect perspective? Not the only example of something like that in artwork.

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#14
Couldn't the shields on the Mainz column bases just be curved rectangles, shown with a little incorrect perspective? Not the only example of something like that in artwork.

Matthew


Of course. All perspective is "off" in that grouping... subject to interpretation?

http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig005.png

...and don't forget the umbo shapes!
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
Reply
#15
Thoughts:
1. even a minimal curve of the shield boss flange (say 1-2mm) could be sufficient for a curved / dished shield. The shield needs not to be curved at the same angle for the whole of its width, it may very well be curved stronger towards the edges.
2. the 3rd c. CE shield bosses which have a completely flat flange are to a very high percentage from cavalry sites. Also, flat shields are mostly seen in art in connection with cavalry
3. several depictions of cavalry shields show on the backside a vertical grip sometimes with slightly shhifted angle (up to 45°), which makes sense for someone sitting on horseback.
4. Doncaster a cavalry shield?
5. Was the initial state of the shield boss (before preservation) different from what it is now? Wouldn´t be the first one... If we don´t know, the info that the flange is flat now is useless.
6. Some shield reinforcing bars from the 3rd century belonging to bosses with angled flange are more than 90 cm long. (Eining, e.g. IIRC)
In fact, a long reinforcing bar is rather an evidence for the shield being curved, IMO
7. very often the shield reinforcing bars cover the whole width of a board.
Since the grip on doncaster was ripped from the board befor it came into ground this is quite possible here as well. (IIRC)
8. As can be seen from the dura shields, usually the UPPER half of the shield boards is longer, so that the weight of the shield pulls the lower part AWAY from the legs.

IMO Possible shields:
flat with 45° grip
dished with horizontal grip
curved with horizontal grip

rectangular with curve
oval
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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