clothing colours

[caiusbeerquitius]

In Graham Sumner´s Roman Military Clothing 1 there is among the sources for the colour of clothes (#5) a quote from Plutarch´s Lives, Crassus, 23, which states that Crassus wore a black cloak, which was seen as a bad omen by the soldiers, so he changed his cloak to a purple one.
I recently read an article in "Antike Welt" 02/2008, 22-23 which explaines that black and blue were basically seen as the same colour for religious matters. This can be seen from the fact that the Etruscan God Charun (underworld, death) is often displayed with a blue skin colour.
So, in fact that cloak worn by Crassus may very well have been blue, not black.

Since the legendary tunic colour debate has been over for a while, maybe it would be worth to start discussing this topic again, perhaps in a more civilized manner? Something like a source-collection?
If so, such a discussion should be rather taking place in Military History and Archaology, not in Reenactment and Reconstruction, so that it is cut off of the reenactment policies, maybe?

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

Since the legendary tunic colour debate has been over for a while, maybe it would be worth to start discussing this topic again, perhaps in a more civilized manner? Something like a source-collection?

You might like to wait for the release of my latest book on the subject 'Roman Military Dress' to be published by Tempus very soon.

Fuentes cited 18 references in his catalogue of colour evidence which was raised to nearly 80 references in the three volumes of Roman Military Clothing published by Osprey. In the new book there will be almost 150.

Graham.

[Magnus]

Just a point...but didn't Scipio Africanus also wear a black cloak at one point during the campaigns in Spain I think?

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Matt

Just a point...but didn't Scipio Africanus also wear a black cloak at one point during the campaigns in Spain I think?

There are a few references like this floating around but you need original sources for them to be of any use. There were a few mentions I heard of by re-enactors about Caesar's soldiers obtaining a batch of yellow tunics during the Alexandrian war but no one could tell me the source and I could not find any either.

Another I have not been able to track down is a mosaic which has appeared in a few popular books in the UK. Each image shows the same, a soldier wearing a crested helmet. Presumably there is more to the mosaic than just a head but the helpful picture captions and acknowledgments say the mosaic is in Spain, great!!! Our Spanish RATers had never seen it at all.

Graham.

[Memmia]

Hi Christian,
Regarding this:

I recently read an article in "Antike Welt" 02/2008, 22-23 which explaines that black and blue were basically seen as the same colour for religious matters. This can be seen from the fact that the Etruscan God Charun (underworld, death) is often displayed with a blue skin colour.
So, in fact that cloak worn by Crassus may very well have been blue, not black.

Did the Romans follow the Greeks in their 'colour' analysis and descriptions ?

I know that in the distant past colours were interpreted quite differently than today. The ancient Greeks described colours more towards the way they made the observer feel, or the effect they gave rather than their true colour.Items also seem to be emphasised as 'light' or 'dark' hued rather than details of the actual colour itself. Bit hard to describe but here's a good link with some info describing this:

[url:3utg4g6i]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/61[/url]

Is there any evidence that clothing was ever described as such due to texture or quality rather than a modern perception of colour :?

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Also be careful of translations, especially older ones. "Scarlet" used to mean simply "bright", not necessarily "red". Always go back to the original Latin or Greek if possible, and drag in experts who can pick each word apart.

Looking forward to any new tidbits!

Valete,

Matthew

PS: The "Tunic Color Debate" is only notorious because of one person who insisted on being abusive in his posts. Since he's not around any more, the rest of us will have no problem discussing things pleasantly, to everyone's benefit.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thats good to hear! I quite like my new long sleeved red tunic with blue clavii, and white tunic with red clavi!

Pindar describes the dew as chloros, in Euripides chloros describes blood and tears

From your link Memmia, it seems perhaps they are rather narrow in therir interpretation?

Drops of dew/Blood = Chloros = drops?

reading on, this author has some odd ideas on evolution.....

[M. Demetrius]

I don't know about the clavi, GJC, but your namesake is said to have worn a longsleeved red tunic.

You couldn't find any electric blue for the clavi? Now that would be something!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I will need to win the lottery to do an impression of him!
Would be cool though! But long sleeves? Perhaps on the cooler days in Gaul? Or most likely on his day trip to Britannia!

[Matthew Amt]

I don't know about the clavi, GJC, but your namesake is said to have worn a longsleeved red tunic.

I heard longsleeved, but don't recall a reference to the color. Can someone quote the original??

Matthew

[griffin]

From Suetonius's Life of Julius Caesar. The 1913 Loeb English version:

45.3
They say, too, that he was remarkable in his dress; that he wore a senator's tunic with fringed sleeves reaching to the wrist, and always had a girdle over it, though rather a loose one; and this, they say, was the occasion of Sulla's mot, when he often warned the nobles to keep an eye on the ill-girt boy.

45.3 : Latin
Etiam cultu notabilem ferunt; usum enim lato clavo ad manus fimbriato nec umquam aliter quam ut super eum cingeretur, et quidem fluxiore cinctura; unde emanasse Sullae dictum optimates saepius admonentis, ut male praecinctum puerum caverent.


No words specifcially or obliquely metion colour, but we get a fringes!
The word translated as fringes is "frimbria" for those of you who want to grab a handy dictionary.

[Casmin]

I remember a few years back Munich's Glypothek Museum found traces of red paint on the tunic of the Augustus Prima Porta statue. The report of their findings, "Bunte Gotter", can be purchased on amazon.de
http://www.amazon.de/Bunte-G%C3%B6tter- ... 800&sr=8-3

Also take a look at "The Color of Life: Polychromy in Sculpture from Antiquity to the Present" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892369183/

I searched unsuccessfully for an hour to find an English translation of "Bunte Gotter" (Gods in Color). I found a few sites that stated it was published but no ISBN or links.

[Tarbicus]

From Suetonius's Life of Julius Caesar. The 1913 Loeb English version:

45.3
.....and always had a girdle over it,....

.....et quidem fluxiore cinctura....

Curious cinctura is translated as girdle when it also means belt.


cinctur.a N 1 1 NOM S F
cinctur.a N 1 1 VOC S F
cinctur.a N 1 1 ABL S F
cinctura, cincturae N F [XXXEO] uncommon
belt; girdle; means of girding;

cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 NOM S F FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 VOC S F FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 ABL S F FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 NOM P N FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 VOC P N FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 ACC P N FUT ACTIVE PPL
cingo, cingere, cinxi, cinctus V TRANS [XXXAO]
surround/encircle/ring; enclose; beleaguer; accompany; gird, equip; ring (tree)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I recall it somewhere that he was regarded as one of the loose toga brigade, also a loosely belted young man....something along those lines...

[MeinPanzer]

From Suetonius's Life of Julius Caesar. The 1913 Loeb English version:

45.3
.....and always had a girdle over it,....

.....et quidem fluxiore cinctura....

Curious cinctura is translated as girdle when it also means belt.


cinctur.a N 1 1 NOM S F
cinctur.a N 1 1 VOC S F
cinctur.a N 1 1 ABL S F
cinctura, cincturae N F [XXXEO] uncommon
belt; girdle; means of girding;

cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 NOM S F FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 VOC S F FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 ABL S F FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 NOM P N FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 VOC P N FUT ACTIVE PPL
cinct.ura VPAR 3 1 ACC P N FUT ACTIVE PPL
cingo, cingere, cinxi, cinctus V TRANS [XXXAO]
surround/encircle/ring; enclose; beleaguer; accompany; gird, equip; ring (tree)

I think in this case because the translation is almost a century old now it's just an archaic term for what a newer translation would call a belt.