Throwing the Longche

[Kineas]

Craig Manning built a beautiful reproduction of a cavalry spear (see my "spear" thread below) and I hafted it, and then traveled to central PA to visit my friend Ridgely so that we could test some theories about cavalry warfare and practice throwing javelins on horseback. The kit and spear are about 430 BC.
Before I report on what we learned, I'll also say that this was just the first running of this particular experiment--we're going to try again in September with more spears and different weights.

First, some parameters:

We used Craig's javelin, which weighs almost a kilo with the shaft on. The shaft was made of a dense Brazilian wood that was recommended as having the same characteristics as Cornel wood (ie dogwood, Xenophon's choice). We both rode Jack, a 14.3 hand American quarter horse, as being the best horse in Ridgely's stable to represent a Greek cavalry horse. Jack is also used to being ridden bareback.
All riding and throwing was done bareback without stirrups.
The target was a pair of hay bales stacked atop a 55 gallon drum. You'll be able to see them in the pictures below. The target stood about six feet, which was about a foot too short if the vase illustrations were correct.
The ground was very wet, as we'd just had heavy rain. Jack didn't seem to care. However, even in the ring the footing was treacherous enough that we threw only at the walk and trot. In September we'll try the canter, and Ridgely (a vastly better rider than me) will throw at the gallop.
We both threw across the horse from right to left, so we approached the target on our left. this is how the PanAthenaic vases represent the throwing. Ridgely commented, looking at the vase in Boardman's book (which I can't reproduce here) that it was obvious to him that the riders leaned back to throw and he thought that made sense, although we tried various postures, the leaning back posture (ie, the one on ancient vases) did seem the best. Imagine that! I also made some "melee" casts to my right.

Results

Both of us had practiced dismounted and out throwing was pretty accurate--although I'd guess that a real Athenian cavalryman would be much better. I think we hit the target eighteen of twenty times at ranges of between ten and twenty meters. Ridgely, a better horsemen, could place his hits with ease--it was actually chilling to see how accurate he could be. Even I, riding bareback for the first time in my life, hit the target most of the time, even at around 15 meters.

A couple of things to think about...
1) A cavalryman is higher than his target. Okay, this seems self-evident, but with a kilo-heavy weapon, that height advantage allows the cavalryman to throw DOWN with accuracy. This would help range and penetration AND would make defense more difficult.
2) A horseman can carry heavier weapons with less effort. I wonder if the real utility of hamippoi was re-load of javelins? Anyway, a couple of heavy spears would be a real burden for a psiloi, and he'd have to get close to throw them, and thus be vulnerable--the cavalryman with his javelin is safer and more comfortable.
3) Throwing bareback is very natural. I'm NOT the best rider--I had no problems at all. Jack cooperated even when my spear hand caused me to send him some odd signals. (Jack's the horse)
4) Ridgely, who is an experienced survival hunter (the kind of guy who goes out in the woods with a tee shirt and a swiss army knife) said that he thought that Craig's javelin was one of the best hunting weapons he'd ever seen, because it would knock a deer flat at impact and the shock of the wound would keep the animal down--ie, no running off into deep brush. He felt that a weapon of that size and weight would probably kill or knock down a small horse--which would make it FAR more powerful an a cavalry combat than a Scythian bow and arrows.
5) My worst mis-cast punched right through the side of the 55 gallon drum. That's some penetration.

Again, in September we'll do more experiments and post more.





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[Kineas]

Some more photos:



Ridgely looks smugly at his first hit. The javelin is going all the way to the socket into the bale, and sometimes through it.

And below, acclimatizing the horse to the weapon. It was fascinating to watch Ridgely as he rubbed the spear all over the horse and then walked around the riding ring, making noise with the head and butt, and other antics--all to make sure that the horse was cool with the weapon. It sure worked!


Bareback riding is easy! (hmmm.)

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Very interesting experiment. I wish I had the time, space and money to pursue my own little curiosities.

Im not that good a javelin thrower, so im taking it you have at least some experience? I can't quite get the technique right sadly lol...

[Kineas]

When I was fifteen or so (I'm a farm kid) I spent a summer throwing axes and javelins and the like. Then I discovered guns...

Recently, when a bunch of us decided to get into Classical reenacting, my friend Fil trotted out some javelins and we've been throwing pretty often since then.

Ridgely, who is one of the most skilled reenactors I've ever met (at everything) has thrown for years and used to hunt with spears, so he has some "real world" experience. But he'd never thrown from horseback before and neither had I. I guess my point is, it's really pretty easy--I was rather shocked at how little effort it took.

We have lots left to experiment with, however--throwing with a loop (we did it a couple of times and it improved penetration) and still greater distances--and of course, faster speeds.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

When I was fifteen or so (I'm a farm kid) I spent a summer throwing axes and javelins and the like. Then I discovered guns...

Hehe, that is quite lucky. Sadly when I came to England it was too late for me to do Javellin Throwing at P.E, otherwise I would have been a bit more profficient with it. Wouldn't have any tips would you?

Ridgely, who is one of the most skilled reenactors I've ever met (at everything) has thrown for years and used to hunt with spears, so he has some "real world" experience.

Thats pretty hardcore. I always wondered what it would be like to hunt with bow and arrow, but with just a spear is another league all together.

We have lots left to experiment with, however--throwing with a loop (we did it a couple of times and it improved penetration) and still greater distances--and of course, faster speeds.

Throwing with a loop?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Laudes Kineas! Thanks for the report! Not having a javelin head I'm thinking of borrowing my spear head to make a javeling and experiment.
What was the greater distance you threw the javelin? And how did you interpret the loop? I found that the loop improves much the range and speed. I can' tell about accuracy yet,I have to make an accurate javelin first. Oh,do you have a photo of the real javelin head?
Khaire
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

Laus ad te, Kineas! Excellent demonstration of a cavalry weapon that doesn't get as much attention as some others do.

Have you tried carrying a spare spear in the off hand? How inconvenient was it?

[Kineas]

great question, Sean. I'm putting that in the hopper for September. This time I had just one javelin. Next time I'll have five--two heavy longches, two lighter javelins, and a heavy headed Longche on a thinner staff. I'm troubled by how thin the staves appear in art, and on Sunday a wood expert told me that he was confident that 3/4 inch Cornel wood (dogwood) would stand upo to any amount of throwing or even hand-to-hand fighting--suggesting that the art is accurate.

Giannis, I'm sorry to say I don't have a photo of the original, just the line drawing in my "spear" post.

For the loop, I have to say that ridgely, in additiont o his other merits (and his horse farm) makes saddles for a living and has all kinds of leather. We tried various things and settled on a 1/2 inch wide, fairly heavy strap of English saddle leather (really beautiful stuff) tied so that it had a heavy knot, then wrapped overhand so that in two complete turns around the spear shaft there was room for two fingers inside the loop and the knot made a sort of throwing pad. I'll try to illustrate this tomorrow night. However, with 600 gram javelins, I've used leather boot laces with excellent effect.

Marcus, I don't think I'm expert enough to give pointers, except to say that throwing heavy balls seems to build the right muscles, and that both Youtube and Wikipedia have excellent stuff on throwing a javelin in the Olympics. i have a slightly different throw--I don't run up, because I don't think they did in Classical times, but even that is open to argument--anyway, I've been practicing for a month for throwing from horseback, and that means no run up!

[Na Saighdiuir]

Laudes warranted here..great pics as well!!

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Marcus, I don't think I'm expert enough to give pointers, except to say that throwing heavy balls seems to build the right muscles, and that both Youtube and Wikipedia have excellent stuff on throwing a javelin in the Olympics. i have a slightly different throw--I don't run up, because I don't think they did in Classical times, but even that is open to argument--anyway, I've been practicing for a month for throwing from horseback, and that means no run up!

Thanks Kineas, I'll have a look.

[Marcus_Ulpius_Trajanus]

Very very interesting, Kineas.

I look forward to seeing your next experiments.

[sitalkes]

Laudes from me, too! Will you also try holding both a kamax and javelin and see if it was possible to throw the javelin, then charge with the kamax?

[Kineas]

Chris, I'll be happy to try--Actually, I'll ask Ridgely, as his horsemanship is considerably better. Off the cuff, though, I can't say it would be a problem. I must say that one venture out made me pretty confident in bareback horsemanship--I think a lot of non-riders have spread a bunch of hooey...

Anyway, I'l put it in the "experiments" hopper for September.